Let's Talk About Culture Balance

[Zoythrus]

Normans: Economy through trade, If possible they should be able to trade with cultures when they have a disposition of 25+ with other cultures instead of needing to be good allies. They also get better deals than most cultures when they trade with people.

You know, I wish that the villages used Denier when it comes to trade with other villages. Sadly, this isn't the case, so, saying "they get better deals" isn't possible. Also, the Normans are descended from Vikings, so it'd sound better if they were the ones to get benefits through raids instead of trade. We can swap ideas with the Byzantines, but then, the whole "gets resources through raids" bit is the niche of the planned bandit villages, so I don't think it'd fit well for a standard village.

Hindi: Economy through gathering, more people gathering resources most of them can be defenders for there town as well but they are poorly equipped. extra buildings that are just for workers to live in.

I like the idea, but there's a problem - High resource production at the cost of military simply makes them attract bandits and greedy players and always lose. Want a ton of cobblestone? Raid a Hindi village, they can't put up much of a fight. It's why I think they should be defensively organized and equipped. I think that increasing gather speed, especially of crops, sounds great, but they should be able to tightly hold onto that stuff as well.

Japanese: Military and Economy through shrines? They have average of both but they can build shrines to increase those stats. I'm thinking that they can build maybe three or four shrines and each time they do it gives a random bonus e.g. they build either A, B or C. A gives combat B gives economy and C gives growth?

So, it was discussed a while ago about the idea of having a central monument that both held the village's stats and served as a central point to a village (as far as the code is concerned), and we agreed on doing it because it took a ton of stress off of the I/O system and kept things centralized. We also talked about making that monument, which could be a shrine, grant the village passive benefits as it gets upgraded, as well as it'd serve as sort of an indicator of progress - you could tell how advanced a village was by examining the monument. Now, I wish that we could have some player choice influence just what passive benefits the monument gives, so you could ask that the village "spec" into A, B, or C, but then, I also feel this would get too complex. I want a village to be able to operate more or less independently and not require player input to advance. Really, this all boils down to what Galian is able to do. I'm all for giving each culture vastly different ways of doing the same tasks (and would prefer it), but that means more work for Galian in the long run.

Byzantine: Military through tanking, they have military units with heavy armour and weapons, need to be slow and bulky. Also they need to be able to raid more frequently. Maybe they can build a planning headquarter for there raids that speeds up planning phase of raids.

As I've stated plenty of times before, I don't want to give one culture a distinct advantage in raiding, both because that's the point of bandits and because it's not "fun." So, put it like this, what if a Byzantine village has befriended all nearby villages? Then they have no one to raid, and their bonus is worthless. If a culture DEMANDS raiding to be useful, then what's the point in befriending anyone? I want bandit villages to fill this niche because it makes them the "bad guys." I do like the idea of the Byzantines being "slower and heavier" than other cultures - everything of theirs is slow, but is technically "superior" to all other stuff.

Mayan: Military and economy through idols? Special members of the tribe that carry idols, while they are alive they can boost stats. needs to be more precise than Japanese shrines as in the bonus can be specifically for build speed, or a type of crop or for speed, health or attack of soldiers.

You know, it'd be kinda cool if idols could be made which apply a passive bonus, but only if they're currently being held. Seeing as we're now given an off-hand, this might make up for the fact that they don't have a proper replacement for the shield. I'm imagining Speed, Strength, and a "Life-Drain" idols, to reinforce an "offensive" combat mentality. The would let a player "specialize" with the enchantments on Mayan weapons/armor, allowing them enhanced flexibility compared to the other cultures.

Inuit: Economy through Resourcefulness, the Inuits were survivors of harsh climates, I like the ideas of fishing bonuses and wandering hunters. I'd also like them to lose less resources after they are raided, as if they had hidden stashes of resources and for them to be able to find good things while fishing and hunting. (rare items that they can bring back to there town).

What if we gave the Inuits idols as well? But with more of a defensive flair? So, you'd get things like Regeneration, Resistance, and a "water suite" of Water Breathing, Depth Strider, etc. If they also had idols that gave bonuses to resource collection, then they'd work as a wonderful foil to the Maya.

Anyway this is just another lot of ideas for cultures, there have been a lot lately and eventually we'll need to decide on how we want to do things, maybe we should start compiling the ideas?

Before I compile any ideas, I'd like to hear from the fans a little more. Right now, we have like, 3 different ideas on how this should be built, and I'd like to have one or two more.

[felinoel]

That seems most likely, they wouldn't be drinking alcohol naturally... though... they may drink strength potions...

We're talkin' alcoholic drinks (well, drinks that improve village spawn rates).

So, then, how should the Inuits and Hindi compensate for their lack of drinks?

I'm sticking with strength potions. Either the vanilla one or a boiled snow item that grants a weak strength bonus.

I mentioned to you that they felt meat granted them strength, it could be created from excess stew water when the chef prepares stew items. Or it could just be the stew items themselves that grants strength AND increases birth rates.

Alcohol increases the birth rate for cultures solely because they get drunk and horny.
Strength bonuses would increase testosterone, and people like to establish their strength by... let's say producing children.

That is why I feel strength potions, or stews that grant strength bonuses, would up the birth rate.

To further define the Inuit stews, the powers of strength bonuses would of course go, rabbit stew, beef stew, polar bear stew. This would either be Strength 1, 2, then 3 or Strength 2, 3, then 4 if you want to give them up to a Strength 4 item.

[felinoel]

So, it was discussed a while ago about the idea of having a central monument that both held the village's stats and served as a central point to a village (as far as the code is concerned), and we agreed on doing it because it took a ton of stress off of the I/O system and kept things centralized. We also talked about making that monument, which could be a shrine, grant the village passive benefits as it gets upgraded, as well as it'd serve as sort of an indicator of progress - you could tell how advanced a village was by examining the monument. Now, I wish that we could have some player choice influence just what passive benefits the monument gives, so you could ask that the village "spec" into A, B, or C, but then, I also feel this would get too complex. I want a village to be able to operate more or less independently and not require player input to advance. Really, this all boils down to what Galian is able to do. I'm all for giving each culture vastly different ways of doing the same tasks (and would prefer it), but that means more work for Galian in the long run.

I never really liked this unless it replaced the town hall, more buildings equals taking up more space and... meh.
Well... OR it could replace the Village Archive buildings maybe?

What if we gave the Inuits idols as well? But with more of a defensive flair? So, you'd get things like Regeneration, Resistance, and a "water suite" of Water Breathing, Depth Strider, etc. If they also had idols that gave bonuses to resource collection, then they'd work as a wonderful foil to the Maya.

I DO have a carver building who produces idols... but they are just decorative.
Idols that grant bonuses could be cool but seems a little OP in the long run.

[Zoythrus]

So, it was discussed a while ago about the idea of having a central monument that both held the village's stats and served as a central point to a village (as far as the code is concerned), and we agreed on doing it because it took a ton of stress off of the I/O system and kept things centralized. We also talked about making that monument, which could be a shrine, grant the village passive benefits as it gets upgraded, as well as it'd serve as sort of an indicator of progress - you could tell how advanced a village was by examining the monument. Now, I wish that we could have some player choice influence just what passive benefits the monument gives, so you could ask that the village "spec" into A, B, or C, but then, I also feel this would get too complex. I want a village to be able to operate more or less independently and not require player input to advance. Really, this all boils down to what Galian is able to do. I'm all for giving each culture vastly different ways of doing the same tasks (and would prefer it), but that means more work for Galian in the long run.

I never really liked this unless it replaced the town hall, more buildings equals taking up more space and... meh.
Well... OR it could replace the Village Archive buildings maybe?

The idea was to replace the Stepwell building that the Hindi had. It says that it gives a 20% bonus to crop growth, and I was like, "What if everyone had a building that gave that village a noticeable passive benefit?" Galian came up with the idea of a small, 4x4 monument that held the village's data (a technical purpose), and then we decided to merge the two ideas.

What if we gave the Inuits idols as well? But with more of a defensive flair? So, you'd get things like Regeneration, Resistance, and a "water suite" of Water Breathing, Depth Strider, etc. If they also had idols that gave bonuses to resource collection, then they'd work as a wonderful foil to the Maya.

I DO have a carver building who produces idols... but they are just decorative.
Idols that grant bonuses could be cool but seems a little OP in the long run.

It depends upon what we agree on. I see the Maya and Inuits as having less direct offensive/defensive ability compared to everyone else, but have to rely upon enchantments/idols/effects of various sorts to remain competitive. I want the Maya and Inuits to be able to conduct a raid on another culture and actually have a chance at winning. We just need to agree on what sorts of effects these cultures specialize in before we can properly fine-tune them with everyone else. This is why I think that an "offensive" and "defensive" flair would be a great way to make these two "primitive" civilizations distinct between both each other and the other cultures.

[Zoythrus]

Alcohol increases the birth rate for cultures solely because they get drunk and horny.
Strength bonuses would increase testosterone, and people like to establish their strength by... let's say producing children.

That is why I feel strength potions, or stews that grant strength bonuses, would up the birth rate.

To further define the Inuit stews, the powers of strength bonuses would of course go, rabbit stew, beef stew, polar bear stew. This would either be Strength 1, 2, then 3 or Strength 2, 3, then 4 if you want to give them up to a Strength 4 item.

I'm cool with that. A food that does both is a great idea, but that means that they're going to need a ton of it. So, the Hindi don't eat steak, and they need crop bonuses to make up for it. The Inuits aren't huge on crops (except for potatoes), so having meat to compensate seems like a pretty decent balance.

[felinoel]

I never really liked this unless it replaced the town hall, more buildings equals taking up more space and... meh.
Well... OR it could replace the Village Archive buildings maybe?

The idea was to replace the Stepwell building that the Hindi had. It says that it gives a 20% bonus to crop growth, and I was like, "What if everyone had a building that gave that village a noticeable passive benefit?" Galian came up with the idea of a small, 4x4 monument that held the village's data (a technical purpose), and then we decided to merge the two ideas.

Well every village has a Village Archives building and this building already holds data but data about the villagers, also not every village has a Stepwell.
Just adding on additional features to a building that is already there seems more appropriate and less wasteful imo

I DO have a carver building who produces idols... but they are just decorative.
Idols that grant bonuses could be cool but seems a little OP in the long run.

It depends upon what we agree on. I see the Maya and Inuits as having less direct offensive/defensive ability compared to everyone else, but have to rely upon enchantments/idols/effects of various sorts to remain competitive. I want the Maya and Inuits to be able to conduct a raid on another culture and actually have a chance at winning. We just need to agree on what sorts of effects these cultures specialize in before we can properly fine-tune them with everyone else. This is why I think that an "offensive" and "defensive" flair would be a great way to make these two "primitive" civilizations distinct between both each other and the other cultures.

I'm just saying that a carver already exists for the Inuits.

Alcohol increases the birth rate for cultures solely because they get drunk and horny.
Strength bonuses would increase testosterone, and people like to establish their strength by... let's say producing children.

That is why I feel strength potions, or stews that grant strength bonuses, would up the birth rate.

To further define the Inuit stews, the powers of strength bonuses would of course go, rabbit stew, beef stew, polar bear stew. This would either be Strength 1, 2, then 3 or Strength 2, 3, then 4 if you want to give them up to a Strength 4 item.

I'm cool with that. A food that does both is a great idea, but that means that they're going to need a ton of it. So, the Hindi don't eat steak, and they need crop bonuses to make up for it. The Inuits aren't huge on crops (except for potatoes), so having meat to compensate seems like a pretty decent balance.

I'm pretty sure that the Hindi use a food item to up the birth rate, the sugar balls called rasgulla.

[Zoythrus]

I never really liked this unless it replaced the town hall, more buildings equals taking up more space and... meh.
Well... OR it could replace the Village Archive buildings maybe?

The idea was to replace the Stepwell building that the Hindi had. It says that it gives a 20% bonus to crop growth, and I was like, "What if everyone had a building that gave that village a noticeable passive benefit?" Galian came up with the idea of a small, 4x4 monument that held the village's data (a technical purpose), and then we decided to merge the two ideas.

Well every village has a Village Archives building and this building already holds data but data about the villagers, also not every village has a Stepwell.
Just adding on additional features to a building that is already there seems more appropriate and less wasteful imo

But the Archives aren't a primary building (and neither is the Stepwell). Nah, the discussion was about a monument that starts and gets upgraded since the start of the village and held technical data to free up the I/O system, not "villager data." Galian also said it would increase performance.

I'm just saying that a carver already exists for the Inuits.

And I was putting up an idea for what they should carve, if we wanted to go with the idol route.

And I'll look over the foods again and see if Rasgulla counts as a "drink."

[felinoel]

The idea was to replace the Stepwell building that the Hindi had. It says that it gives a 20% bonus to crop growth, and I was like, "What if everyone had a building that gave that village a noticeable passive benefit?" Galian came up with the idea of a small, 4x4 monument that held the village's data (a technical purpose), and then we decided to merge the two ideas.

Well every village has a Village Archives building and this building already holds data but data about the villagers, also not every village has a Stepwell.
Just adding on additional features to a building that is already there seems more appropriate and less wasteful imo

But the Archives aren't a primary building (and neither is the Stepwell). Nah, the discussion was about a monument that starts and gets upgraded since the start of the village and held technical data to free up the I/O system, not "villager data." Galian also said it would increase performance.

I'm just saying that a carver already exists for the Inuits.

And I was putting up an idea for what they should carve, if we wanted to go with the idol route.

The Archives can become a primary building.
There would be little to no visible change.

Or every village could get a stepwell added which is very noticeable because it adds additional buildings in a limited space.

And I'll look over the foods again and see if Rasgulla counts as a "drink."

It says it on the wiki article...
http://millenaire.org/wiki/Hindi:Rasgulla

[Orange1861]

Also, most cultures don't have their variant of the archives.

[felinoel]

Also, most cultures don't have their variant of the archives.

Wait... what?
I thought all cultures had archives?
It was why my Inuits have a ceremonial circle building because I thought an archives building was required...

[felinoel]

Also, most cultures don't have their variant of the archives.

Wait... what?
I thought all cultures had archives?
It was why my Inuits have a ceremonial circle building because I thought an archives building was required...

I just looked into it and the Normans, Hindi, and Japanese all have archives buildings so, "most cultures" is wrong.
I'm not sure if the Mayans have one, maybe the Sun Calendar building is it? It doesn't say on the wiki... also the Byzantines aren't documented on the wiki well enough for me to check.

But if less than half of the cultures don't have Archive buildings I still think that Archive buildings should be used, the other two (or fewer) cultures that might not have it can have something else like the Sun Calendar used.

[Zoythrus]

I'm talking about this thing that Galian mentioned a while ago:

One of the things thats new in 1.8.9 Millenaire is a block (and tiny building) called the Village Stone. Its a small stone with a plaque on it that is (quite literally) the heart of the village. I created it mainly because it is a tile entity holding all the local data on the village (that used to be in files), but it also organically fits into play, as it will be what you use a wand of negation on to destroy a village (and I think I'm going to have it explode when you do, just for dramatic effect) and when you create villages with a wand of summoning, the gold block will turn into it.

I was going to have this replace the Stepwell, as it would provide a passive boost to the village after upgrading. Every culture's Village Stone provides a different effect.

[felinoel]

I'm talking about this thing that Galian mentioned a while ago:

One of the things thats new in 1.8.9 Millenaire is a block (and tiny building) called the Village Stone. Its a small stone with a plaque on it that is (quite literally) the heart of the village. I created it mainly because it is a tile entity holding all the local data on the village (that used to be in files), but it also organically fits into play, as it will be what you use a wand of negation on to destroy a village (and I think I'm going to have it explode when you do, just for dramatic effect) and when you create villages with a wand of summoning, the gold block will turn into it.

I was going to have this replace the Stepwell, as it would provide a passive boost to the village after upgrading. Every culture's Village Stone provides a different effect.

I'm just saying it should be worked into the Archives building, that way the Archives building has a real use and there is no need for additional buildings.

[Zoythrus]

I'm talking about this thing that Galian mentioned a while ago:

One of the things thats new in 1.8.9 Millenaire is a block (and tiny building) called the Village Stone. Its a small stone with a plaque on it that is (quite literally) the heart of the village. I created it mainly because it is a tile entity holding all the local data on the village (that used to be in files), but it also organically fits into play, as it will be what you use a wand of negation on to destroy a village (and I think I'm going to have it explode when you do, just for dramatic effect) and when you create villages with a wand of summoning, the gold block will turn into it.

I was going to have this replace the Stepwell, as it would provide a passive boost to the village after upgrading. Every culture's Village Stone provides a different effect.

I'm just saying it should be worked into the Archives building, that way the Archives building has a real use and there is no need for additional buildings.

From the way it sounds, it's already been implemented, so it's not like we can un-implement it, we simply have to work around it.

You know, I think I mentioned it before somewhere, but I like the idea of the villages having a sort of "tech level." So, the T1 stuff is the basic stuff, and the T3 stuff is the advanced stuff. A Village Stone is the perfect way to gauge the progress of a village, as it gets larger and more elaborate as time goes on. But then, if you want to take it up with Galian, do so now.

Now, back on topic, for the sake of discussion, let's assume that every culture has a building that provides a passive benefit to the village, regardless of what that building is. Here's my idea:

Normans - Animal growth rates
Hindi - Crop growth rates
Byzantines - Haste (or some sort of mining efficiency)
Maya - Villager Speed
Inuits - Villager Health Regeneration or Resistance
Japanese - ?

Of course, these are up for discussion.

[felinoel]

I'm talking about this thing that Galian mentioned a while ago:

I was going to have this replace the Stepwell, as it would provide a passive boost to the village after upgrading. Every culture's Village Stone provides a different effect.

I'm just saying it should be worked into the Archives building, that way the Archives building has a real use and there is no need for additional buildings.

From the way it sounds, it's already been implemented, so it's not like we can un-implement it, we simply have to work around it.

You know, I think I mentioned it before somewhere, but I like the idea of the villages having a sort of "tech level." So, the T1 stuff is the basic stuff, and the T3 stuff is the advanced stuff. A Village Stone is the perfect way to gauge the progress of a village, as it gets larger and more elaborate as time goes on. But then, if you want to take it up with Galian, do so now.

It could be in the code but he can attach the code to the Archives buildings thus giving those buildings a real use.

Now, back on topic, for the sake of discussion, let's assume that every culture has a building that provides a passive benefit to the village, regardless of what that building is. Here's my idea:

Normans - Animal growth rates
Hindi - Crop growth rates
Byzantines - Haste (or some sort of mining efficiency)
Maya - Villager Speed
Inuits - Villager Health Regeneration or Resistance
Japanese - ?

Of course, these are up for discussion.

Could the... final version of the village stone grant a beacon effect to give players nearby these bonuses too?

[Zoythrus]

Galian and I spent a good 5 hours today discussing everything, from code, to balance, and the like. I'll post a thread about it later, though.

He says that we're keeping the "Village Stone," as he has plans for it, and has already coded it to hold all the village's info.

[felinoel]

Galian and I spent a good 5 hours today discussing everything, from code, to balance, and the like. I'll post a thread about it later, though.

He says that we're keeping the "Village Stone," as he has plans for it, and has already coded it to hold all the village's info.

I'm saying put the "features" (if they can be called that) of the Archives also in the Village Stone in order to lessen the amount of overall buildings.

[Zoythrus]

Galian and I spent a good 5 hours today discussing everything, from code, to balance, and the like. I'll post a thread about it later, though.

He says that we're keeping the "Village Stone," as he has plans for it, and has already coded it to hold all the village's info.

I'm saying put the "features" (if they can be called that) of the Archives also in the Village Stone in order to lessen the amount of overall buildings.

Things are going to be adjusted so that space probably won't be an issue. Also, I did bring up to him the idea of moving everything to the Archives, and he said he wants to keep them as a late-game building.

[felinoel]

Galian and I spent a good 5 hours today discussing everything, from code, to balance, and the like. I'll post a thread about it later, though.

He says that we're keeping the "Village Stone," as he has plans for it, and has already coded it to hold all the village's info.

I'm saying put the "features" (if they can be called that) of the Archives also in the Village Stone in order to lessen the amount of overall buildings.

Things are going to be adjusted so that space probably won't be an issue. Also, I did bring up to him the idea of moving everything to the Archives, and he said he wants to keep them as a late-game building.

Space will always be an issue.

I always played at super high village radius levels but the sheer amount of buildings there were was just annoying and easy to get lost in.

[sakkarCZ]

why couldn´t you move village stone in to archive, when arachive was build? Or build archive on place where is village stone like an upgrade of village stone?

sorry for my bad english. I hope you understand me.

[Ticlon]

My thoughts on the village stone are: Why not incorporate it into the townhall? It used to do all the storing before and is the Center of the villages in a lot of cases, like my Byzantine Town Square or the Norman castle. It serves as start point for path systems as well and is the biggest meeting point for chatting villagers!
But don't get me wrong, if Galian has different plans I am perfectly fine

Regardless, I like the idea of having shrines of different cultures providing village-wide boni - we could even expand that to have multiple shrines in a village, as a reward for befriending other villages. A Norman village, which has very good relations to a Hindi village could build a Hindi friendship shrine (sounds kinda silly ) which provides the Norman village better crop growth as well, maybe to a lesser extent though.
Would make 'friendly' villages also better balance-wise (rather neutral cultures like Hindi and Inuit could acquire them faster and with better boni) as well as Kinnikens proposed Empire system if it ever comes: Aggressive Empires who raid will not gain such advantages, but Trade leagues of Economic-based villages could get those

For archives, as fel asked: No the Byztanines do not have archives as I did not like them. They are too big!

[Zoythrus]

Who knows? We might just ditch the archives! Right now, I know that Galian has plans, so I'm going to let him do his thing. I promise you, whatever he decides to do will be a good idea, we just got to have some faith.


Okay, back to culture balance, we need to come to a consensus on the "overarching philosophies" of each culture. Right now, we haven't much deviated from my original idea, but I'd like to have something more or less unanimous.

[felinoel]

why couldn´t you move village stone in to archive, when arachive was build? Or build archive on place where is village stone like an upgrade of village stone?

sorry for my bad english. I hope you understand me.

This is exactly what I was saying, yeah.

My thoughts on the village stone are: Why not incorporate it into the townhall? It used to do all the storing before and is the Center of the villages in a lot of cases, like my Byzantine Town Square or the Norman castle. It serves as start point for path systems as well and is the biggest meeting point for chatting villagers!
But don't get me wrong, if Galian has different plans I am perfectly fine

Regardless, I like the idea of having shrines of different cultures providing village-wide boni - we could even expand that to have multiple shrines in a village, as a reward for befriending other villages. A Norman village, which has very good relations to a Hindi village could build a Hindi friendship shrine (sounds kinda silly ) which provides the Norman village better crop growth as well, maybe to a lesser extent though.
Would make 'friendly' villages also better balance-wise (rather neutral cultures like Hindi and Inuit could acquire them faster and with better boni) as well as Kinnikens proposed Empire system if it ever comes: Aggressive Empires who raid will not gain such advantages, but Trade leagues of Economic-based villages could get those

I would be more fine with the town halls being where the stones are stored.

For archives, as fel asked: No the Byztanines do not have archives as I did not like them. They are too big!

Ugh, right?! I had no idea how to incorporate the huge archives so I just made it a campfire with the archives underground. The campfire is integral to the Creation Quests for my Inuits though because an old lady who is ready to kill herself for the good of the community (as they did when they get too old (communism!)) hands out some quests.

Who knows? We might just ditch the archives! Right now, I know that Galian has plans, so I'm going to let him do his thing. I promise you, whatever he decides to do will be a good idea, we just got to have some faith.

Ditching the archives could work, I would remove the basement from my campfire and only have it spawn in certain villages that had less buildings...
Ummm... http://millenaire.org/wiki/User:Felinoe ... n_Villages
They are pretty balanced but meh.

Okay, back to culture balance, we need to come to a consensus on the "overarching philosophies" of each culture. Right now, we haven't much deviated from my original idea, but I'd like to have something more or less unanimous.

The Inuits are communists so I found it hard to make them use money... but maybe things are cheaper with the Inuits?

[Zoythrus]

Enough about the archives/village stone. It'll all work out, just trust us. If you have any serious questions about it, PM me and I'll talk to Galian.

Okay, back to culture balance, we need to come to a consensus on the "overarching philosophies" of each culture. Right now, we haven't much deviated from my original idea, but I'd like to have something more or less unanimous.

The Inuits are communists so I found it hard to make them use money... but maybe things are cheaper with the Inuits?

I'd love to see the Inuit people talk about why they find money to be useless, but have adopted it because everyone else has. As much as I'd love to give them a moneyless economy, that's not possible both due to coding and to balance. But hey, I do wonder if we could get a barter society.....

About the Inuits having cheaper sell prices compared to the other cultures, I like the idea, but what will offset that? For balance, they have to have a penalty to make up for cheaper prices. I was going to say "cheaper buy prices" as well, but then that turns into a "buy from Inuits, sell to Byzantines" issue. Or, we can get around the whole issue by just pricing their stuff the same as everyone else.

[felinoel]

Enough about the archives/village stone. It'll all work out, just trust us. If you have any serious questions about it, PM me and I'll talk to Galian.

Okay, back to culture balance, we need to come to a consensus on the "overarching philosophies" of each culture. Right now, we haven't much deviated from my original idea, but I'd like to have something more or less unanimous.

The Inuits are communists so I found it hard to make them use money... but maybe things are cheaper with the Inuits?

I'd love to see the Inuit people talk about why they find money to be useless, but have adopted it because everyone else has. As much as I'd love to give them a moneyless economy, that's not possible both due to coding and to balance. But hey, I do wonder if we could get a barter society.....

When explorers first came across members of the Inuit-Yupik tribes they asked for food and blankets, when the Inuit-Yupiks gave them it free of charge they asked for more, and more, and more, and more. The Inuit-Yupiks couldn't fathom someone taking something that wasn't of the utmost importance for survival so they just kept giving and giving without hesitation.

About the Inuits having cheaper sell prices compared to the other cultures, I like the idea, but what will offset that? For balance, they have to have a penalty to make up for cheaper prices. I was going to say "cheaper buy prices" as well, but then that turns into a "buy from Inuits, sell to Byzantines" issue. Or, we can get around the whole issue by just pricing their stuff the same as everyone else.

Well I mean... they are the only culture that sells wooden tools the last time I checked?
Also they are slow at gathering materials because their tree and food farms are small?

[Zoythrus]

When explorers first came across members of the Inuit-Yupik tribes they asked for food and blankets, when the Inuit-Yupiks gave them it free of charge they asked for more, and more, and more, and more. The Inuit-Yupiks couldn't fathom someone taking something that wasn't of the utmost importance for survival so they just kept giving and giving without hesitation.

About the Inuits having cheaper sell prices compared to the other cultures, I like the idea, but what will offset that? For balance, they have to have a penalty to make up for cheaper prices. I was going to say "cheaper buy prices" as well, but then that turns into a "buy from Inuits, sell to Byzantines" issue. Or, we can get around the whole issue by just pricing their stuff the same as everyone else.

Well I mean... they are the only culture that sells wooden tools the last time I checked?
Also they are slow at gathering materials because their tree and food farms are small?

Here's an idea - what if we made some of their basic items cost 0 Denier, but the better stuff, like spears and the like, cost much more.
So, you can grab free wooden axes or swords, as well as some basic edibles, like a unique food that fills half a Hunger. Of course, if you want any of the good food/tools/weapons, you're going to have to cough up the money, but you can grab basic stuff for free.

[felinoel]

When explorers first came across members of the Inuit-Yupik tribes they asked for food and blankets, when the Inuit-Yupiks gave them it free of charge they asked for more, and more, and more, and more. The Inuit-Yupiks couldn't fathom someone taking something that wasn't of the utmost importance for survival so they just kept giving and giving without hesitation.

About the Inuits having cheaper sell prices compared to the other cultures, I like the idea, but what will offset that? For balance, they have to have a penalty to make up for cheaper prices. I was going to say "cheaper buy prices" as well, but then that turns into a "buy from Inuits, sell to Byzantines" issue. Or, we can get around the whole issue by just pricing their stuff the same as everyone else.

Well I mean... they are the only culture that sells wooden tools the last time I checked?
Also they are slow at gathering materials because their tree and food farms are small?

Here's an idea - what if we made some of their basic items cost 0 Denier, but the better stuff, like spears and the like, cost much more.
So, you can grab free wooden axes or swords, as well as some basic edibles, like a unique food that fills half a Hunger. Of course, if you want any of the good food/tools/weapons, you're going to have to cough up the money, but you can grab basic stuff for free.

This is PERFECT because they also sell dirt since it is one of their building materials and I had concerns with making dirt cost something.

Dirt, wooden tools, raw potatos, and raw fish would probably be best for free.

[Zoythrus]

This is PERFECT because they also sell dirt since it is one of their building materials and I had concerns with making dirt cost something.

Dirt, wooden tools, raw potatos, and raw fish would probably be best for free.

I agree with that selection ONLY if you can "sell" those items back for free as well. Baked potatoes and cooked fish should also be freely sold to the village as well.

[felinoel]

This is PERFECT because they also sell dirt since it is one of their building materials and I had concerns with making dirt cost something.

Dirt, wooden tools, raw potatos, and raw fish would probably be best for free.

I agree with that selection ONLY if you can "sell" those items back for free as well. Baked potatoes and cooked fish should also be freely sold to the village as well.

Errrr... just thought of an issue, dirt is a building material. It is used early on alone and then it is used to make sod planks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eAL_ndf2Es

Perhaps... giving items away for free (ie the villages need 42 blocks of dirt to make this upgrade and you give it to them for nothing) gives you rep faster?
This could be a unique feature for the Inuits, faster rep growth via communistic trading where the player gives items to the village for free?

[Zoythrus]

This is PERFECT because they also sell dirt since it is one of their building materials and I had concerns with making dirt cost something.

Dirt, wooden tools, raw potatos, and raw fish would probably be best for free.

I agree with that selection ONLY if you can "sell" those items back for free as well. Baked potatoes and cooked fish should also be freely sold to the village as well.

Errrr... just thought of an issue, dirt is a building material. It is used early on alone and then it is used to make sod planks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eAL_ndf2Es

Perhaps... giving items away for free (ie the villages need 42 blocks of dirt to make this upgrade and you give it to them for nothing) gives you rep faster?
This could be a unique feature for the Inuits, faster rep growth via communistic trading where the player gives items to the village for free?

Iirc, dirt is a resource in unlimited supply for the Millagers, as they use it to fill in holes during upgrades and they make paths out of it. So, infinite building materials, and infinite dirt to sell.

[felinoel]

I agree with that selection ONLY if you can "sell" those items back for free as well. Baked potatoes and cooked fish should also be freely sold to the village as well.

Errrr... just thought of an issue, dirt is a building material. It is used early on alone and then it is used to make sod planks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eAL_ndf2Es

Perhaps... giving items away for free (ie the villages need 42 blocks of dirt to make this upgrade and you give it to them for nothing) gives you rep faster?
This could be a unique feature for the Inuits, faster rep growth via communistic trading where the player gives items to the village for free?

Iirc, dirt is a resource in unlimited supply for the Millagers, as they use it to fill in holes during upgrades and they make paths out of it. So, infinite building materials, and infinite dirt to sell.

Well... that is no good?
Then sod plank production will not have proper immersion?

[sakkarCZ]

Is it possible to calculate how many dirt is need to fill holes and make paths?

Making new hause can look like: 1) determining the place for new building (draw on the map where it will be)
2) looking if place is good (hight, water, or something), if it will be bad( in the map place will becolored with some other color than normal)
3) calculating how many dirt is needet + needet resources for this building

I onli ask if this is possible. I know this will be probably hard to do. I onli say this as suggestion.

I hope you understand my bad english.

[felinoel]

Is it possible to calculate how many dirt is need to fill holes and make paths?

Making new hause can look like: 1) determining the place for new building (draw on the map where it will be)
2) looking if place is good (hight, water, or something), if it will be bad( in the map place will becolored with some other color than normal)
3) calculating how many dirt is needet + needet resources for this building

I onli ask if this is possible. I know this will be probably hard to do. I onli say this as suggestion.

I hope you understand my bad english.

Yes.

[Zoythrus]

Well... that is no good?
Then sod plank production will not have proper immersion?

That's up to you. I kinda like the idea of them giving you unlimited dirt (because it's so plentiful and no one else wants/needs it), but once again, it's not really up to me.

Now, about sod planks, I guess that if each block of the stuff takes a little bit of time, like 10 seconds, then their stocks shouldn't overflow. If they do, then foreign merchants will do away with them.

[julianderl]

Hey,
I think its a good idea to balance out everything. However, I'd say first it would be nice to work on the interactions between all settlements and wars

[Zoythrus]

Hey,
I think its a good idea to balance out everything. However, I'd say first it would be nice to work on the interactions between all settlements and wars

Please explain what you mean.

[felinoel]

Well... that is no good?
Then sod plank production will not have proper immersion?

That's up to you. I kinda like the idea of them giving you unlimited dirt (because it's so plentiful and no one else wants/needs it), but once again, it's not really up to me.

Now, about sod planks, I guess that if each block of the stuff takes a little bit of time, like 10 seconds, then their stocks shouldn't overflow. If they do, then foreign merchants will do away with them.

I just mean that they will have dirt readily available to them so they won't need the player to give any.

I currently have a sodder villager who makes sod planks but from time to time will wander around the village with a shovel.

Also there can be a cap to how many sod planks are made to prevent overflowing.

[Zoythrus]

Well... that is no good?
Then sod plank production will not have proper immersion?

That's up to you. I kinda like the idea of them giving you unlimited dirt (because it's so plentiful and no one else wants/needs it), but once again, it's not really up to me.

Now, about sod planks, I guess that if each block of the stuff takes a little bit of time, like 10 seconds, then their stocks shouldn't overflow. If they do, then foreign merchants will do away with them.

I just mean that they will have dirt readily available to them so they won't need the player to give any.

I currently have a sodder villager who makes sod planks but from time to time will wander around the village with a shovel.

Also there can be a cap to how many sod planks are made to prevent overflowing.

Yeah, if it's unlimited dirt, then players shouldn't need to give them any. Of course, if sod takes a while, or if it requires a secondary component in addition to dirt, then that's something completely different.

What other building materials do they use?

[felinoel]

That's up to you. I kinda like the idea of them giving you unlimited dirt (because it's so plentiful and no one else wants/needs it), but once again, it's not really up to me.

Now, about sod planks, I guess that if each block of the stuff takes a little bit of time, like 10 seconds, then their stocks shouldn't overflow. If they do, then foreign merchants will do away with them.

I just mean that they will have dirt readily available to them so they won't need the player to give any.

I currently have a sodder villager who makes sod planks but from time to time will wander around the village with a shovel.

Also there can be a cap to how many sod planks are made to prevent overflowing.

Yeah, if it's unlimited dirt, then players shouldn't need to give them any. Of course, if sod takes a while, or if it requires a secondary component in addition to dirt, then that's something completely different.

What other building materials do they use?

Sod planks are made from planks and dirt.
They also use dirt and planks for lower tiers but the sod planks are the highest tier.

[Zoythrus]

Sod planks are made from planks and dirt.
They also use dirt and planks for lower tiers but the sod planks are the highest tier.

Hmmm, I guess that is fine. Right now, the Inuits seem like a "not much work, but little reward" civ. In your mind, what makes them appealing? Why would I seek out an Inuit village, aside from starving out in the frozen wilderness?


Oh, off topic, I want your opinion, what if player houses could be upgraded, instead of having multiple buildings?

[felinoel]

Sod planks are made from planks and dirt.
They also use dirt and planks for lower tiers but the sod planks are the highest tier.

Hmmm, I guess that is fine. Right now, the Inuits seem like a "not much work, but little reward" civ. In your mind, what makes them appealing? Why would I seek out an Inuit village, aside from starving out in the frozen wilderness?

I was hoping their gear and food would be appealing.

Oh, off topic, I want your opinion, what if player houses could be upgraded, instead of having multiple buildings?

I don't like upgradeable player houses.
When you move into a house and lay some of your own blocks down and put down some chests and stuff and they upgrade it... your chests (and all of its contents) and blocks could be forever lost.
This is why player housing is wanted, because it is a nice place where they WON'T destroy your stuff, unlike every other building in the village.
I remember in the early days I would mine deep under a village and just store my stuff down below just to be sure they don't destroy it, but nowadays I use cacti or lava to find the edge of the map and store stuff JUST outside of the village.

[Zoythrus]

I was hoping their gear and food would be appealing.

I meant specifically. We talked about a spear that does bleed damage, fur clothes with cool, unique enchantments (Frost walker, depth strider, and aqua affinity), purchasable wolves, and a dish that grants strength. I just feel like we're missing something to wow people.

I don't like upgradeable player houses.
When you move into a house and lay some of your own blocks down and put down some chests and stuff and they upgrade it... your chests (and all of its contents) and blocks could be forever lost.
This is why player housing is wanted, because it is a nice place where they WON'T destroy your stuff, unlike every other building in the village.
I remember in the early days I would mine deep under a village and just store my stuff down below just to be sure they don't destroy it, but nowadays I use cacti or lava to find the edge of the map and store stuff JUST outside of the village.

Here's how I'd do it to avoid that problem - I'd make each level purchasable and at the whim of the players. So, you have to go to the chief to commission the tiny house, then you have to commission every upgrade for X Denier. When you do, the chief will tell you to move anything important to you before they upgrade, with some excuse like "So they don't accidentally move your stuff for you." That way, you'd be given warning ahead of time, and if you lose anything, that's your fault.

I suggested upgradeable houses because I got tired of having a tiny, medium, and large house strewn throughout the village. That's just wasted space that they could use for other things.

[felinoel]

I was hoping their gear and food would be appealing.

I meant specifically. We talked about a spear that does bleed damage, fur clothes with cool, unique enchantments (Frost walker, depth strider, and aqua affinity), purchasable wolves, and a dish that grants strength. I just feel like we're missing something to wow people.

Well the bow does bleed damage... maybe there can be two spears one of wood and one of bone but the bone spear does bleed damage too?
I intended for my shamans to be able to use some Minecraft magic once the Creation Quest was completed, maybe that can wow them?

I don't like upgradeable player houses.
When you move into a house and lay some of your own blocks down and put down some chests and stuff and they upgrade it... your chests (and all of its contents) and blocks could be forever lost.
This is why player housing is wanted, because it is a nice place where they WON'T destroy your stuff, unlike every other building in the village.
I remember in the early days I would mine deep under a village and just store my stuff down below just to be sure they don't destroy it, but nowadays I use cacti or lava to find the edge of the map and store stuff JUST outside of the village.

Here's how I'd do it to avoid that problem - I'd make each level purchasable and at the whim of the players. So, you have to go to the chief to commission the tiny house, then you have to commission every upgrade for X Denier. When you do, the chief will tell you to move anything important to you before they upgrade, with some excuse like "So they don't accidentally move your stuff for you." That way, you'd be given warning ahead of time, and if you lose anything, that's your fault.[/quote]Oh so like with Skyrim, that could work but half of the player buildings I have are snow igloos?
http://millenaire.org/wiki/User:Felinoe ... #Buildings

I suggested upgradeable houses because I got tired of having a tiny, medium, and large house strewn throughout the village. That's just wasted space that they could use for other things.

Personally I usually buy two plots of land to store animals in and one larger plot or a house and I always built my own house in my own way.

[Zoythrus]

About the weapons and stuff, that sounds fine. Making Inuit weapons more DOT sounds like fun. DOT and Slowness II sound like they'd be pretty amazing on a weapon, especially for a culture that's more defensive than their Mayan counterparts. And I wouldn't mind some magic that fits within Minecraft's general theme.

About the house, only the "dedicated player house" would be upgradeable. I'd keep plots the way they are, because that's their express purpose. Of course, player houses are a thing for later.

[felinoel]

About the weapons and stuff, that sounds fine. Making Inuit weapons more DOT sounds like fun. DOT and Slowness II sound like they'd be pretty amazing on a weapon, especially for a culture that's more defensive than their Mayan counterparts. And I wouldn't mind some magic that fits within Minecraft's general theme.

What is DOT?

Minecraft magic is potions, enchantments, and buff/debuffs. Inuits would do one of those or maybe they would have a few enchantments and they would grant buffs as blessings.

About the house, only the "dedicated player house" would be upgradeable. I'd keep plots the way they are, because that's their express purpose. Of course, player houses are a thing for later.

The large igloo is intended to be a dedicated player house (the small igloo is intended to replace the medium plot).

[Zoythrus]

About the weapons and stuff, that sounds fine. Making Inuit weapons more DOT sounds like fun. DOT and Slowness II sound like they'd be pretty amazing on a weapon, especially for a culture that's more defensive than their Mayan counterparts. And I wouldn't mind some magic that fits within Minecraft's general theme.

What is DOT?

Minecraft magic is potions, enchantments, and buff/debuffs. Inuits would do one of those or maybe they would have a few enchantments and they would grant buffs as blessings.

DOT = gamer slang for "Damage Over Time." Poison or Wither, for example. And yeah, I'd be all for giving them some potions or buffs to the player. Something that would make you want to seek one out.

About the house, only the "dedicated player house" would be upgradeable. I'd keep plots the way they are, because that's their express purpose. Of course, player houses are a thing for later.

The large igloo is intended to be a dedicated player house (the small igloo is intended to replace the medium plot).[/quote]

Well, plots need to stay as plots, and every culture needs a small, medium, and large one. Actual structures need to not be plots for that reason. Plots have a specific purpose, and that is to demarcate a specific area for the player and custom creation.

[felinoel]

About the weapons and stuff, that sounds fine. Making Inuit weapons more DOT sounds like fun. DOT and Slowness II sound like they'd be pretty amazing on a weapon, especially for a culture that's more defensive than their Mayan counterparts. And I wouldn't mind some magic that fits within Minecraft's general theme.

What is DOT?

Minecraft magic is potions, enchantments, and buff/debuffs. Inuits would do one of those or maybe they would have a few enchantments and they would grant buffs as blessings.

DOT = gamer slang for "Damage Over Time." Poison or Wither, for example. And yeah, I'd be all for giving them some potions or buffs to the player. Something that would make you want to seek one out.

Maybe the blessings can be in potion form.

every culture needs a small, medium, and large one.

Why?
No one uses the plots, I barely do myself and only because they are there, not out of necessity.
The snow igloos aren't really houses and the one replacing the plot is just a plot with a roof essentially.

[Zoythrus]

every culture needs a small, medium, and large one.

Why?
No one uses the plots, I barely do myself and only because they are there, not out of necessity.
The snow igloos aren't really houses and the one replacing the plot is just a plot with a roof essentially.

1. Legacy mechanics.

2. They serve a very important purpose - delegating an area to free building within the village. Yeah, I don't use the plots, either, but I do like having them. I'm not very creative, and am quite happy with the houses they give me, but I can always find use for a little more space.

[MoonCutter2B]

I use plots for chests, crafting and sometimes for farming stuff.
If I have Forestry installed I often breed some bees there just to have something to do while they build something.

[felinoel]

every culture needs a small, medium, and large one.

Why?
No one uses the plots, I barely do myself and only because they are there, not out of necessity.
The snow igloos aren't really houses and the one replacing the plot is just a plot with a roof essentially.

1. Legacy mechanics.

2. They serve a very important purpose - delegating an area to free building within the village. Yeah, I don't use the plots, either, but I do like having them. I'm not very creative, and am quite happy with the houses they give me, but I can always find use for a little more space.

The snow igloos aren't really houses and the one replacing the plot is just a plot with a roof essentially.