Let's Talk About Culture Balance

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Zoythrus
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Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Zoythrus » Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:24 pm

As Galian works on getting the mod up to 1.8, I feel we can do something in the meantime, so we don't just sit here bored.

So, Galian and I had talked in the past about doing a "Culture Balance Pass" where we look at each individual culture and attempt to tweak and adjust them so they feel more cohesive and up to a standard. Right now, each of the cultures have shortcomings that need to be addressed, like the Japanese textures/text and uniqueness to the various items.

This thread is dedicated to discussion of balancing each of the cultures and also includes discussion of the Inuits.

To start discussion, let's talk about weapons/armor between all the cultures. Here's my philosophy, everyone needs to be given a niche. Right now, foodstuffs differentiate everyone, but I think their unique armor/weapons could be much the same way. I want a player to say "Oh, the Hindi, their stuff does X."

My thoughts thusfar:

Normans - Strong and sturdy, but with nothing special to them. You'll find their swords with "Sharpness I" and armor with "Protection I," but that's it. Boring but reliable.

Byzantines - Strong as well, but with some uniqueness that differentiates them from the Normans. I want to add custom enchantments that allow their maces to do extra damage to armor (and less to flesh). I also wouldn't be opposed to giving their armor some cool, defensive enchantment like "Thorns I" or "Unbreaking I". On par with the Normans, but differently.

Maya - being "primitive" compared to the European cultures, would focus upon leather armor and their Obsidian tools. Right now, obsidian tools are highly enchantable, but also relatively durable. If we turn down the durability a bit, we could give them some nifty enchantments like "Knockback" or "Looting." Concerning their leather armor, I'd give things like "Feather Falling," "Projectile Protection," or a permanent speed boost. Compared to the Normans and Byzantines, their tools have interesting properties to make up for being lighter.

Japanese - I guess they also have Heavy equipment, so, to keep them unique, I'd give their stuff a pro/con feel. Like, their sword getting both "Mending" and "Unbreaking II," but also getting "Curse of Binding" and "Curse of Vanishing," So, you can't drop it, and you lose it if you die. Having the Japanese as the "High Risk, High Reward" culture gives them a niche.

Hindi - The Hindi don't actually have any specific weapons or armor, so I don't know what to give them, but I would like to see them get a more utilitarian flair (after we give them unique items). Their armor having things like "Blast Protection" and "Aqua Affinity," but being less for combat.

Inuits - Same with the Hindi, I don't know what equipment they've been given, but I would make them comparable to a mixture of the Maya and Japanese. Cool, powerful enchantments, at a cost (where the Maya are more stable, but weaker). For additional fun, I wonder if we give their armor random enchantments, so that you'll have ZERO idea what you'll be given.

Your thoughts?

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Xour
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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Xour » Wed Oct 05, 2016 11:43 pm

Diversifying the cultures is a good idea, I often find myself uninterested in the items that cultures provide and more interested in getting cultures to war with each other, adding enchantments is a good way too make a player want to invest in cultures item's, perhaps the players reputation with the culture could effect the enchantment on the item as well.

On the topic of culture balance I think the Normans need a decrease in the number of there towns that spawn. In my own personal setting I always turn the chance of Norman Gros-Bourgs (the town that spawns with three hamlet's attatched) and the Hindi equivalent, too a much lower setting to balance the number of towns of each culture.

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Zoythrus
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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Zoythrus » Thu Oct 06, 2016 1:29 am

Honestly, I'm for removing hamlets altogether, but that's just me.

But concerning enchantments, I was planning on giving each culture's "Holy Men," the power to enchant stuff later on. Well, it doesn't have to be them, but that sounds the best. They'd do it like any job - if there's a sword in the chest, they'll take it and enchant it with pre-selected enchantments. I haven't figured out the specifics, yet, though.

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by ThaneAngus » Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:52 am

I'm all for the idea of having an enchantment system for each of the different cultures, and having it balanced. However, going along the lines of making each culture more unique, could we also have different cultural weapons that provide different base mechanics? For instance maybe the tachi sword for the Japanese could swing faster yet do less damage, while the Norman broadswords swing slower but do more damage, etc? Or maybe even take one step further and have different special moves like chops or thrusts, a similar idea to the different weapon styles Tinker's Construct has to offer? It's all just brainstorming, but I think it would be a cool idea for possible additions.
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Zoythrus
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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Zoythrus » Thu Oct 06, 2016 4:14 am

ThaneAngus wrote:I'm all for the idea of having an enchantment system for each of the different cultures, and having it balanced. However, going along the lines of making each culture more unique, could we also have different cultural weapons that provide different base mechanics? For instance maybe the tachi sword for the Japanese could swing faster yet do less damage, while the Norman broadswords swing slower but do more damage, etc? Or maybe even take one step further and have different special moves like chops or thrusts, a similar idea to the different weapon styles Tinker's Construct has to offer? It's all just brainstorming, but I think it would be a cool idea for possible additions.
Well, sadly, Millenaire isn't a combat simulator, so going extremely in depth in what you can do would detract from the rest of the mechanics. Now, honestly, I'm not too sure what is and is not available to us in the way of weapon stats. I know we can change damage and durability, but I don't know about swing speed. Ultimately, I'm expecting Millenaire to hit 1.10 eventually and give us access to the Combat Update's features, like slashes, shields, and the like. So, we'll just have to wait and see what all we can change.

On that note, we can change things through enchantments, and some mods have custom enchantments, so it'd be great if we could get some ourselves. That's what I was referring to with the Byzantine maces doing more damage to armor.

EDIT: I've been doing some research on Hindi equipment from the time period, and unsurprisingly, there's relatively little (which is usually what happens when an empire fractures into tiny, warring nation states). But, here's what I did find:
Image

Aside from a full armor, I'm probably going to give the Hindi a spear and an axe. You'll find the armor with utilitarian, but situational, enchantments like fire or explosion resistance. The weapons themselves might have Flame Aspect or knockback (or both). So, all in all, the Hindi are great in specific situations, but poor in others.

SECOND EDIT: Right now, Millagers are immune to indirect damage, like drowning, explosions, and fire, and this is so to prevent griefing. Now, I would like to propose that we remove that immunity, and implement a system that penalizes players a little whenever a Millager dies (much the same way with Testificates). This allows fire/explosive protection to actually mean something to the Millagers, and gives you reason to try to protect them. Letting hostile mobs or hostile Millagers kill citizens of a village you're in, you'll lose some influence for "not saving them." Just give them the pathfinding smarts to step away from imminent danger, like a pool of lava or deep pits, and we should be fine (and not expect them to keep killing themselves).

Orange1861
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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Orange1861 » Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:26 am

Well, as a history fan I would recommend the following:

Byzantines: Should have the strongest equipment for infantry melee fighting. Also should have a naval focus. This is because they had strong infantry and a powerful navy but weak in ranged and cavalry. Armor should give slow 1. A.K.A. Water and best armor.

Normans: Cavalry focus, they should have very good horses and horse armor. Almost par with the Byzantines in melee. Armor should give slow 1. A.K.A. Horses and offensive focus.

Japanese: Very damage focused and should have better weapons than the Byzantines but should have the worst armor in the game. A.K.A. best swords but weak armor.

Maya: Should not be military focused, have weaker armor. Leather armor should give positive buffs. A.K.A. "Primitive"

Inuit: Same as Maya but have specialized armor in cold biomes, Ex. speed 2 and haste 2 in "cold" biomes. A.K.A. Buffs in cold.

Hindi: Don't really know but it would be very unique if they had elephants. A.K.A. ELEPHANTS!
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PsiGuy60
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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by PsiGuy60 » Fri Oct 07, 2016 4:48 pm

Zoythrus wrote: SECOND EDIT: Right now, Millagers are immune to indirect damage, like drowning, explosions, and fire, and this is so to prevent griefing. Now, I would like to propose that we remove that immunity, and implement a system that penalizes players a little whenever a Millager dies (much the same way with Testificates). This allows fire/explosive protection to actually mean something to the Millagers, and gives you reason to try to protect them. Letting hostile mobs or hostile Millagers kill citizens of a village you're in, you'll lose some influence for "not saving them." Just give them the pathfinding smarts to step away from imminent danger, like a pool of lava or deep pits, and we should be fine (and not expect them to keep killing themselves).
I would still keep them immune to fall damage, drowning and suffocating in blocks, if only so they don't die while building. I mean, it's funny to watch a villager build a Pagoda's roof and then fall off it, but if they die from that and blame the player that's just unfair. Same if they're building a moat and drown in it.

The influence loss in general you should be careful about implementing - I mean, the player can't be everywhere at once, and various villagers sleep in doorless buildings. I'd make it effort-based - if you're actually fighting the hostile party, you don't lose influence per villager that dies that night. You'd still have incentive to protect the villagers, but you don't get penalized if your best efforts weren't enough.

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by felinoel » Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:26 pm

Orange1861 wrote:Inuit: Same as Maya but have specialized armor in cold biomes, Ex. speed 2 and haste 2 in "cold" biomes. A.K.A. Buffs in cold.
Seems too limited, for some reason it seems that I am the only one in all of existence to build in snow biomes, everyone else avoids them like the plague. Giving them something that only works in places that no one wants to be in kind of nerfs the stuff hard.



As for the entire conversation though check out this thread too.
http://millenaire.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=400

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Zoythrus
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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Zoythrus » Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:43 pm

PsiGuy60 wrote:
Zoythrus wrote: SECOND EDIT: Right now, Millagers are immune to indirect damage, like drowning, explosions, and fire, and this is so to prevent griefing. Now, I would like to propose that we remove that immunity, and implement a system that penalizes players a little whenever a Millager dies (much the same way with Testificates). This allows fire/explosive protection to actually mean something to the Millagers, and gives you reason to try to protect them. Letting hostile mobs or hostile Millagers kill citizens of a village you're in, you'll lose some influence for "not saving them." Just give them the pathfinding smarts to step away from imminent danger, like a pool of lava or deep pits, and we should be fine (and not expect them to keep killing themselves).
I would still keep them immune to fall damage, drowning and suffocating in blocks, if only so they don't die while building. I mean, it's funny to watch a villager build a Pagoda's roof and then fall off it, but if they die from that and blame the player that's just unfair. Same if they're building a moat and drown in it.

The influence loss in general you should be careful about implementing - I mean, the player can't be everywhere at once, and various villagers sleep in doorless buildings. I'd make it effort-based - if you're actually fighting the hostile party, you don't lose influence per villager that dies that night. You'd still have incentive to protect the villagers, but you don't get penalized if your best efforts weren't enough.
Yeah, that makes sense, but explosives, fire damage, and potion damage/effects should be fair game. With decent pathfinding, it should be fair for both Millagers and players, and would provide a fun incentive to keep them defended (just as long as they can keep themselves reasonably defended). And yeah, I'd put half penalty during a raid, enough to get you to care, but not enough to horribly penalize you if they lose.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, to Orange, I wrote out a huge thing in response, then the forum did a thing and I lost it. So, I'll happily type out a proper rebuttal again if you'd like me to, but here's a tiny response:

I'm a fan of historical accuracy, too, but some things either aren't "fun" or doable. eg. We can't do any naval or cavalry activity without substantial coding, so keep that in mind.

My thoughts were designed to balance everyone out in a fun and gameplay-focused manner, inspired by history, instead of being purely historical. Each culture needs to have a niche that keeps them different, but equal to each other. Here's the reason why I thought why I did:

Normans - being the first culture, made by Kinniken himself, I wanted to make them the effective baseline. All of their stuff is boring, but practical, and you can expect them to be powerful through simple, standard enchantments, like Unbreaking, Protection, and Sharpness. If we got cavalry, they'd have the best horse armor.

Byzantines - Similar to the Normans in ability, but through "bizarre" enchantments. While they both have heavy armor, for example, the Normans would get Protection and the Byzantines would get Thorns. They have a mace, currently, that I want to give anti-armor ability, but it wouldn't be as strong as the Norman sword. Think of them like the Luigi to the Norman's Mario (think Smash Bros, here). If we got cavalry, they'd be stronger but slower than the Normans. If we got naval, they'd be naval focused as well.

Japanese - irl, their armor and weapons weren't as strong as European stuff, due to poor iron. So, I was going to give them stuff with explicit bonuses and penalties through enchantments, to give them sort of a "mystical" flair. So, an offensive powerhouse, but everything comes with a cost, usually defensive. I was also going to give them the greatest archery focus, as they currently have a unique bow.

Hindi - If the Japanese are explicitly the most offensive at the cost of defense, the Hindi are the defensively powerful culture. Their armor and weapons become situationally powerful, like giving their armor flame, explosive, projectile resistances, or their swords Flame Aspect or Smite. Not very historically accurate, but they're to balance out the Japanese.

Maya - Using primitive equipment, like leather armor, they already have implicit penalties. So, to make them competitive, I was going to make their stuff enchantment heavy. That means that their armor will give you speed boosts, have powerful resistances, and the like, but at the cost of defensive strength and durability. You'll also find poisoned spears and weak tools with cool enchantments. So, trickery over brute strength.

Inuits - I don't know, honestly, but I wanted to make them much like the Maya, but through greater pros/cons. I would expect them to have great positive and negative enchantments, making them more like the Japanese. You'd also find things with Frost Walker, Aqua Affinity, and Luck of the Sea, and if we could get naval stuff, they'd be the other naval culture, with the Byzantines. Honestly, I don't know how to properly balance them, as they're not fully implemented, yet.

So, gameplay diversity > historical accuracy, for the sake of fun. :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Felinoel, I totally forgot about the Acculturation pack!
Honestly, though, I want to keep the cultures grounded in the Overworld, so I didn't want to give them any Nether or End access. I feel like the bonuses/differences should be significant, but subtle (and around a culture-specific theme), so it's why I like using enchantments.

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Orange1861 » Fri Oct 07, 2016 6:12 pm

I wrote out a huge thing in response, then the forum did a thing and I lost it.
Ouch, that happened to me before.

While I agree with you Zoythrus, I feel that Normans and Byzantines should be swapped as the Normans were at their height during this time using different armor and weapons than most countries. While the Byzantines were the "standard" nation as they were in power for the longest time.

Looking above, I think Normans should have smaller, more militaristic towns (removing Gros Burg) as they were a newer empire rising in power and was often invading (even conquered Southern Italy), while the Byzantines were an old declining empire so they should have less but larger settlements(receiving their version of Gros Burg). It would be cool (but not needed) if the world generated one super city with a massive radius somewhere in the world named Constantinople.
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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Zoythrus » Fri Oct 07, 2016 6:26 pm

Orange1861 wrote: While I agree with you Zoythrus, I feel that Normans and Byzantines should be swapped as the Normans were at their height during this time using different armor and weapons than most countries. While the Byzantines were the "standard" nation as they were in power for the longest time.

I was hoping to keep the Normans as the "base culture" because they were the first added to the mod (and thus, are automatically the "base culture"), but I guess I wouldn't be opposed to giving that right to the Byzantines.
Looking above, I think Normans should have smaller, more militaristic towns (removing Gros Burg) as they were a newer empire rising in power and was often invading (even conquered Southern Italy), while the Byzantines were an old declining empire so they should have less but larger settlements(receiving their version of Gros Burg). It would be cool (but not needed) if the world generated one super city with a massive radius somewhere in the world named Constantinople.
We can't change village spawn rates any, so that's not possible, and really, the villages only build what they are told to build, and have set borders. So, your idea of "larger villages" isn't possible. Generally, every culture thus far has 3 types of villages - Militaristic, Agricultural, and Cultured, iirc. I hope to keep that the way it is.

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Orange1861 » Fri Oct 07, 2016 6:44 pm

Zoythrus wrote:
Orange1861 wrote: While I agree with you Zoythrus, I feel that Normans and Byzantines should be swapped as the Normans were at their height during this time using different armor and weapons than most countries. While the Byzantines were the "standard" nation as they were in power for the longest time.

I was hoping to keep the Normans as the "base culture" because they were the first added to the mod (and thus, are automatically the "base culture"), but I guess I wouldn't be opposed to giving that right to the Byzantines.
Looking above, I think Normans should have smaller, more militaristic towns (removing Gros Burg) as they were a newer empire rising in power and was often invading (even conquered Southern Italy), while the Byzantines were an old declining empire so they should have less but larger settlements(receiving their version of Gros Burg). It would be cool (but not needed) if the world generated one super city with a massive radius somewhere in the world named Constantinople.
We can't change village spawn rates any, so that's not possible, and really, the villages only build what they are told to build, and have set borders. So, your idea of "larger villages" isn't possible. Generally, every culture thus far has 3 types of villages - Militaristic, Agricultural, and Cultured, iirc. I hope to keep that the way it is.
What I mean by "larger" villages is that they start off bigger and have a sightly larger build radius. I would like more variants for villages as most development has gone into the Normans. It would be nice if all cultures received the same amount of work. Also thank you for these responses, do you help code the 1.8.9 update?
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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Zoythrus » Fri Oct 07, 2016 6:52 pm

Orange1861 wrote:What I mean by "larger" villages is that they start off bigger and have a sightly larger build radius. I would like more variants for villages as most development has gone into the Normans. It would be nice if all cultures received the same amount of work. Also thank you for these responses, do you help code the 1.8.9 update?
Yeah, I know what you mean, but that's a hardcoded, non-discriminate variable. Now, you can adjust it, but it adjusts it for all villages. When it comes to having individual build radii, I don't think it's wise, as the reason you can adjust it globally is for computer performance.

And while I do have some ability to code in Java (and want to help with some of the stuff, like custom enchantments), 99,9999% of the coding is up to Galian. Now, really, most of the stuff in this thread is about what we can work with. The purpose of this thread is more about a redesign of the current cultures to make them feel cohesive, not about suggesting a ton of new ideas that need coding.

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Orange1861 » Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:07 pm

Zoythrus wrote: Yeah, I know what you mean, but that's a hardcoded, non-discriminate variable. Now, you can adjust it, but it adjusts it for all villages. When it comes to having individual build radii, I don't think it's wise, as the reason you can adjust it globally is for computer performance.

And while I do have some ability to code in Java (and want to help with some of the stuff, like custom enchantments), 99,9999% of the coding is up to Galian. Now, really, most of the stuff in this thread is about what we can work with. The purpose of this thread is more about a redesign of the current cultures to make them feel cohesive, not about suggesting a ton of new ideas that need coding.
Well, then I stand by my replies that don't involve that much coding. I know how difficult it is to code something this huge in java. Thank you for being a community leader that helps us all think in perceptive.
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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Zoythrus » Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:16 pm

Orange1861 wrote:Well, then I stand by my replies that don't involve that much coding. I know how difficult it is to code something this huge in java.
Yeah, it's not easy. I made this thread to keep some of the pressure off of Galian. Now, yes, there are a few things that will need to be added, but let's try to keep that either to a minimum. If it isn't either automatically doable, or closely related to something that is, it doesn't belong in this thread.
Thank you for being a community leader that helps all think in perceptive.
If Galian is doing the coding, I've decided to help out in another way - getting this mod to feel "complete." I just want us to be prepared for whenever Galian does get this mod up to 1.8.9.

So, back to the topic, if the Byzantines are going to be our baseline culture, what should they get? We can't create cultures based on the Byzantines if they're not the first done. :P

Right now, let's get items done first. They have a mace, a full suit of iron armor, silk clothes, Byzantine roof tiles, grapes/wine, lamb chops, and Byzantine paintings.

If we're going to make them the baseline, we should give them a sword with Sharpness II. The mace should get an anti-armor bonus, Knockback I, and the anti-shield ability added in the Combat Update.

The Armor should just be "good," so Protection I on everything.

Everything else should stay the same. What do you think?

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Orange1861 » Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:34 pm

Zoythrus wrote: Yeah, it's not easy. I made this thread to keep some of the pressure off of Galian. Now, yes, there are a few things that will need to be added, but let's try to keep that either to a minimum. If it isn't either automatically doable, or closely related to something that is, it doesn't belong in this thread.

If Galian is doing the coding, I've decided to help out in another way - getting this mod to feel "complete." I just want us to be prepared for whenever Galian does get this mod up to 1.8.9.

So, back to the topic, if the Byzantines are going to be our baseline culture, what should they get? We can't create cultures based on the Byzantines if they're not the first done. :P

Right now, let's get items done first. They have a mace, a full suit of iron armor, silk clothes, Byzantine roof tiles, grapes/wine, lamb chops, and Byzantine paintings.

If we're going to make them the baseline, we should give them a sword with Sharpness II. The mace should get an anti-armor bonus, Knockback I, and the anti-shield ability added in the Combat Update.

The Armor should just be "good," so Protection I on everything.

Everything else should stay the same. What do you think?
The Byzantines should still have advantages over the other cultures so I think their main perk should be protection so they should have diamond equivalent with very good shields at the cost of slow 1 and no prot enchant. Their sword should have sharp 1 but with unbreaking 1. An impoinant thing about a baseline culture is that they have the least number of enchants. The cost to buy Byzantine weapons should be high.

A thing that irks me a little is that they don't have plots of land for players to buy, they only have houses. I agree with everything else.
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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Zoythrus » Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:09 pm

Orange1861 wrote: The Byzantines should still have advantages over the other cultures so I think their main perk should be protection so they should have diamond equivalent with very good shields at the cost of slow 1 and no prot enchant. Their sword should have sharp 1 but with unbreaking 1. An impoinant thing about a baseline culture is that they have the least number of enchants. The cost to buy Byzantine weapons should be high.

A thing that irks me a little is that they don't have plots of land for players to buy, they only have houses. I agree with everything else.
For the record, I've been imagining a villager type whose job is enchanting, and that they'd enchant stuff if there's a surplus. That way, you can buy expensive, enchanted stuff, or cheaper, nonenchanted stuff. That's why I wanted to give Byzantine stuff Sharpness and Protection, so you can have options.
After thinking it over, I'd make their heavy armor better than Iron but weaker than Diamond, so that Diamond still has a purpose. I like the Slowness penalty, but then it might slow down the Millagers (slowing the village's efficiency) unless they decided to wear armor only when attacking stuff. So, we'll go with Diamond strength+slowness if it won't affect the Millagers' efficiency.

And, I was assuming that we'd be giving the Byzantines plots, that's really easy. :)

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Orange1861 » Sat Oct 08, 2016 2:33 pm

Zoythrus wrote:
For the record, I've been imagining a villager type whose job is enchanting, and that they'd enchant stuff if there's a surplus. That way, you can buy expensive, enchanted stuff, or cheaper, nonenchanted stuff. That's why I wanted to give Byzantine stuff Sharpness and Protection, so you can have options.
After thinking it over, I'd make their heavy armor better than Iron but weaker than Diamond, so that Diamond still has a purpose. I like the Slowness penalty, but then it might slow down the Millagers (slowing the village's efficiency) unless they decided to wear armor only when attacking stuff. So, we'll go with Diamond strength+slowness if it won't affect the Millagers' efficiency.

And, I was assuming that we'd be giving the Byzantines plots, that's really easy. :)
Something that I was thinking about that someone could try to have a combo of different culture things so there needs to be incentive to have everything from one faction like if you have a full set of Norman while wielding a Norman sword you would get speed 1 (speed 1 is arbitrary).
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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Zoythrus » Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:07 pm

Orange1861 wrote:
Zoythrus wrote:
For the record, I've been imagining a villager type whose job is enchanting, and that they'd enchant stuff if there's a surplus. That way, you can buy expensive, enchanted stuff, or cheaper, nonenchanted stuff. That's why I wanted to give Byzantine stuff Sharpness and Protection, so you can have options.
After thinking it over, I'd make their heavy armor better than Iron but weaker than Diamond, so that Diamond still has a purpose. I like the Slowness penalty, but then it might slow down the Millagers (slowing the village's efficiency) unless they decided to wear armor only when attacking stuff. So, we'll go with Diamond strength+slowness if it won't affect the Millagers' efficiency.

And, I was assuming that we'd be giving the Byzantines plots, that's really easy. :)
Something that I was thinking about that someone could try to have a combo of different culture things so there needs to be incentive to have everything from one faction like if you have a full set of Norman while wielding a Norman sword you would get speed 1 (speed 1 is arbitrary).
I'd be okay with that, although, I don't know if that's possible right now. I like the idea, though.

Let's keep that idea on the backburner, and return once we get each culture properly sorted (so we don't count our chickens before they hatch).

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Orange1861 » Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:03 pm

Zoythrus wrote:
Orange1861 wrote:
Zoythrus wrote:
For the record, I've been imagining a villager type whose job is enchanting, and that they'd enchant stuff if there's a surplus. That way, you can buy expensive, enchanted stuff, or cheaper, nonenchanted stuff. That's why I wanted to give Byzantine stuff Sharpness and Protection, so you can have options.
After thinking it over, I'd make their heavy armor better than Iron but weaker than Diamond, so that Diamond still has a purpose. I like the Slowness penalty, but then it might slow down the Millagers (slowing the village's efficiency) unless they decided to wear armor only when attacking stuff. So, we'll go with Diamond strength+slowness if it won't affect the Millagers' efficiency.

And, I was assuming that we'd be giving the Byzantines plots, that's really easy. :)
Something that I was thinking about that someone could try to have a combo of different culture things so there needs to be incentive to have everything from one faction like if you have a full set of Norman while wielding a Norman sword you would get speed 1 (speed 1 is arbitrary).
I'd be okay with that, although, I don't know if that's possible right now. I like the idea, though.

Let's keep that idea on the backburner, and return once we get each culture properly sorted (so we don't count our chickens before they hatch).
Alright, I was thinking that the Normans should get an axe for their version of breaking down shields.

Also, I was thinking as the native Americans had less wars meaning that they had weaker combat sets than every one else, so their bonuses shouldn't come from combat. I've been thinking about something to do with the Mayan calendar for the Maya.
- Part time modder. Loves playing Minecraft and adores NPCs in most games.

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Zoythrus » Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:04 pm

Orange1861 wrote: Alright, I was thinking that the Normans should get an axe for their version of breaking down shields.

Also, I was thinking as the native Americans had less wars meaning that they had weaker combat sets than every one else, so their bonuses shouldn't come from combat. I've been thinking about something to do with the Mayan calendar for the Maya.
Thankfully, the Normans already have an axe (as well as a full set of tools). Do you think that the Byzantines should get tools as well? The only other culture with unique tools are the Maya. For the record, I do NOT think everyone should get a full set. I don't mind, though, if the various cultures all get individual unique tools, like the Inuits getting a fishing rod or the Japanese getting a bow.

And the Mesoamericans were always warring, usually for sacrifices or as a show of power. I could see the Inuits being more passive than the Maya, but I feel that the Maya should be an offensive culture.

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by felinoel » Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:59 pm

Zoythrus wrote:Felinoel, I totally forgot about the Acculturation pack!
Acculturation was for the end game, to have the Earthlings realize the potential of the new world they are in and abuse the power there for their own purposes.
Honestly, though, I want to keep the cultures grounded in the Overworld, so I didn't want to give them any Nether or End access. I feel like the bonuses/differences should be significant, but subtle (and around a culture-specific theme), so it's why I like using enchantments.
Well the access would only be visual, they of course would not be able to go there (though it would be fun to have random villagers randomly spawn in those dimensions just wandering around), it is just to give them materials from the other dimensions.
Like to give the Byzantines their marble stone from the Nether (quartz), or just netherbrick and whatnot, then for the End there is of course endstone and purpur blocks.
Zoythrus wrote:We can't change village spawn rates any, so that's not possible, and really, the villages only build what they are told to build, and have set borders. So, your idea of "larger villages" isn't possible. Generally, every culture thus far has 3 types of villages - Militaristic, Agricultural, and Cultured, iirc. I hope to keep that the way it is.
Personally I hate the requiring flat ground thing, no one likes flat, open landscapes so everyone adds mods to liven up the landscape a bit but that stops villages from spawning, Kinn removed a LOT of the requirement for flat ground but left in a bit still that can mess up the spawn rate for the more lively world generation maps...
Orange1861 wrote:Something that I was thinking about that someone could try to have a combo of different culture things so there needs to be incentive to have everything from one faction like if you have a full set of Norman while wielding a Norman sword you would get speed 1 (speed 1 is arbitrary).
Set bonuses!
Sounds like a cool idea imo
Orange1861 wrote:Alright, I was thinking that the Normans should get an axe for their version of breaking down shields.

Also, I was thinking as the native Americans had less wars meaning that they had weaker combat sets than every one else, so their bonuses shouldn't come from combat. I've been thinking about something to do with the Mayan calendar for the Maya.
Yeah the Native Americans had so crazy little pvp abilities, that is why it has been so hard for my Inuits to figure out things to grab people's attention...
Zoythrus wrote:Thankfully, the Normans already have an axe (as well as a full set of tools). Do you think that the Byzantines should get tools as well? The only other culture with unique tools are the Maya. For the record, I do NOT think everyone should get a full set. I don't mind, though, if the various cultures all get individual unique tools, like the Inuits getting a fishing rod or the Japanese getting a bow.
We could do a full on listing like the one I sent you in our convo
Unique thing: Byzantine --- Maya --- Inuit
Weapon: Mace --- Obsidian Sword --- Bone bow
Armor: Iron Armor --- Silk Clothing --- Fur Coat
Farm: Lamb, Grapes --- Chickens, Corn --- Wolves, Potatoes
Food: Wine, Mutton --- "unique drink, some unique foods" --- Fish stew, rabbit stew, beef stew
Accessory: Shield --- Obsidian thing I assume --- Bone Spear
Enchantments: Protection, Sharpness --- Bleed, Sharpness II --- Bleed, Strength (I also had a bleed effect in mind for the Inuits)

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by B35Patriot » Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:34 pm

Hmm... a suggestion as well. How about for culture we give a heavy focus on the things those cultures were mainly known for, for example, since the Byzantines were known for their special calvary called Cataphracts, we could give them a special horse mob that is better than regular horses, such as traveling faster, or being able to be ridden without using a saddle.

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Zoythrus » Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:46 pm

felinoel wrote: Unique thing: Byzantine --- Maya --- Inuit
Weapon: Mace --- Obsidian Sword --- Bone bow
Armor: Iron Armor --- Silk Clothing --- Fur Coat
Farm: Lamb, Grapes --- Chickens, Corn --- Wolves, Potatoes
Food: Wine, Mutton --- "unique drink, some unique foods" --- Fish stew, rabbit stew, beef stew
Accessory: Shield --- Obsidian thing I assume --- Bone Spear
Enchantments: Protection, Sharpness --- Bleed, Sharpness II --- Bleed, Strength (I also had a bleed effect in mind for the Inuits)

So, going off of what we have ingame right now, I'll give a preliminary "chart". Anything with an ! is something to be added. ? implies something I can't remember. N/A is something that either the culture doesn't get or needs to be figured out.

Culture: Byzantine -- Normans -- Maya -- Hindi -- Japanese -- Inuit
Weapon: Sword! -- Sword -- Obsidian Mace -- Spear! -- Sword -- Spear!
Armor: Iron -- Iron -- Leather -- Iron! -- Iron?Cloth? -- Hide!
Secondary: Mace -- Tool Set -- Tool Set -- Axe! -- Yumi Bow -- Bone Bow!
Farm: Grapes -- N/A -- Cocoa -- Rice -- Rice -- N/A
Food: Lamb/Feta -- Benin Noir/Tripes -- Wah/? -- Rasgulla/Curry/VegCurry -- Udon/Ikiyaki/? -- Rabbit Stew/Fish
Drink: Wine/Vin -- Calva/? -- ? -- N/A -- N/A -- N/A
Accessory: Shield! -- Shield! -- Spear! -- N/A -- N/A -- N/A
Enchantments: TBA

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by felinoel » Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:41 am

B35Patriot wrote:Hmm... a suggestion as well. How about for culture we give a heavy focus on the things those cultures were mainly known for, for example, since the Byzantines were known for their special calvary called Cataphracts, we could give them a special horse mob that is better than regular horses, such as traveling faster, or being able to be ridden without using a saddle.
The Inuit were known for... communism?
Not sure what they would be known for... they have great mythos!
Zoythrus wrote:
felinoel wrote: Unique thing: Byzantine --- Maya --- Inuit
Weapon: Mace --- Obsidian Sword --- Bone bow
Armor: Iron Armor --- Silk Clothing --- Fur Coat
Farm: Lamb, Grapes --- Chickens, Corn --- Wolves, Potatoes
Food: Wine, Mutton --- "unique drink, some unique foods" --- Fish stew, rabbit stew, beef stew
Accessory: Shield --- Obsidian thing I assume --- Bone Spear
Enchantments: Protection, Sharpness --- Bleed, Sharpness II --- Bleed, Strength (I also had a bleed effect in mind for the Inuits)

So, going off of what we have ingame right now, I'll give a preliminary "chart". Anything with an ! is something to be added. ? implies something I can't remember. N/A is something that either the culture doesn't get or needs to be figured out.

Culture: Byzantine -- Normans -- Maya -- Hindi -- Japanese -- Inuit
Weapon: Sword! -- Sword -- Obsidian Mace -- Spear! -- Sword -- Spear!
Armor: Iron -- Iron -- Leather -- Iron! -- Iron?Cloth? -- Hide!
Secondary: Mace -- Tool Set -- Tool Set -- Axe! -- Yumi Bow -- Bone Bow!
Farm: Grapes -- N/A -- Cocoa -- Rice -- Rice -- N/A
Food: Lamb/Feta -- Benin Noir/Tripes -- Wah/? -- Rasgulla/Curry/VegCurry -- Udon/Ikiyaki/? -- Rabbit Stew/Fish
Drink: Wine/Vin -- Calva/? -- ? -- N/A -- N/A -- N/A
Accessory: Shield! -- Shield! -- Spear! -- N/A -- N/A -- N/A
Enchantments: TBA
I put the bow as the Inuit weapon and the spear as the Inuit secondary on purpose.
Inuit armor is fur armor, we were discussing in our conversation using rabbit hide or giving polar bears a new dropped item of their fur. To make it useable for regular players who are not involved with the Inuits it could be... polar bear flesh? Then it can be cooked into bear meat and eaten, but Inuit hunters would want to hunt for the bear flesh to bring back for their "armor"
Some Inuits farmed a root vegetable similar to potatoes so I gave few villages a potato farm for a fun factor but they were rare.
An Inuit drink... boiled snow? Perhaps... a birch bark tea? If you need drinks MAYBE the birch bark tea is the way to go but VERY few Inuit tribes boiled birch bark so it would be even rarer than the potato farms.
Hey I forgot about the Maya cocoa farm, I made that one if I recall correctly, a bit after cocoa became farmable

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Zoythrus » Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:49 pm

felinoel wrote: I put the bow as the Inuit weapon and the spear as the Inuit secondary on purpose.
Inuit armor is fur armor, we were discussing in our conversation using rabbit hide or giving polar bears a new dropped item of their fur. To make it useable for regular players who are not involved with the Inuits it could be... polar bear flesh? Then it can be cooked into bear meat and eaten, but Inuit hunters would want to hunt for the bear flesh to bring back for their "armor"
Seems decent. I wonder if hunting parties are possible, as otherwise, you'd have to do it as a farm.
Some Inuits farmed a root vegetable similar to potatoes so I gave few villages a potato farm for a fun factor but they were rare.
An Inuit drink... boiled snow? Perhaps... a birch bark tea? If you need drinks MAYBE the birch bark tea is the way to go but VERY few Inuit tribes boiled birch bark so it would be even rarer than the potato farms.
Hey I forgot about the Maya cocoa farm, I made that one if I recall correctly, a bit after cocoa became farmable
I'd like to remind you that Millenaire is historically inspired, but not historically accurate. So, we might have to take a few liberties when designing the Inuits, just like everyone else. A potato farm sounds like a great food source, especially if they can make some sort of rabbit stew out of both rabbits and potatoes. And concerning the drink, in Millenaire, alcoholic drinks (or really, any drinks) increase villager birth rates (wink wink nudge nudge), so to match everyone else, we should give them one. But then, the Hindi don't have a drink, so it could be a "penalty" for the Inuits - reduced birth rates. That's up to you, though.

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by felinoel » Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:59 pm

Zoythrus wrote:
felinoel wrote: I put the bow as the Inuit weapon and the spear as the Inuit secondary on purpose.
Inuit armor is fur armor, we were discussing in our conversation using rabbit hide or giving polar bears a new dropped item of their fur. To make it useable for regular players who are not involved with the Inuits it could be... polar bear flesh? Then it can be cooked into bear meat and eaten, but Inuit hunters would want to hunt for the bear flesh to bring back for their "armor"
Seems decent. I wonder if hunting parties are possible, as otherwise, you'd have to do it as a farm.
Some Inuits farmed a root vegetable similar to potatoes so I gave few villages a potato farm for a fun factor but they were rare.
An Inuit drink... boiled snow? Perhaps... a birch bark tea? If you need drinks MAYBE the birch bark tea is the way to go but VERY few Inuit tribes boiled birch bark so it would be even rarer than the potato farms.
Hey I forgot about the Maya cocoa farm, I made that one if I recall correctly, a bit after cocoa became farmable
I'd like to remind you that Millenaire is historically inspired, but not historically accurate. So, we might have to take a few liberties when designing the Inuits, just like everyone else. A potato farm sounds like a great food source, especially if they can make some sort of rabbit stew out of both rabbits and potatoes. And concerning the drink, in Millenaire, alcoholic drinks (or really, any drinks) increase villager birth rates (wink wink nudge nudge), so to match everyone else, we should give them one. But then, the Hindi don't have a drink, so it could be a "penalty" for the Inuits - reduced birth rates. That's up to you, though.
The hunters could walk around and then come back at the end of the day with polar bear flesh spawned as if they had a successful hunt.
There already is a 'farm' which is an open field that cows spawn in. I guess there could be a polar bear spawner added to that too but I worry that the polar bears would murder the villagers.

Yes they already have potato farms.

The Hindi not having alcoholic drinks for birth rates was why I felt ok with not giving the Inuits one since most Native Americans didn't drink alcohol until they were given it by their overseas 'visitors'
The Hindi use food for birth rates, the beef stew that grants a strength boost would likely be a food for the Inuits to do that with.

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Zoythrus » Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:04 pm

felinoel wrote:The hunters could walk around and then come back at the end of the day with polar bear flesh spawned as if they had a successful hunt.
There already is a 'farm' which is an open field that cows spawn in. I guess there could be a polar bear spawner added to that too but I worry that the polar bears would murder the villagers.
Well, it sounds like a fun experiment. It would be cool to have hunters as a distinct villager type that leaves for the day then returns with hide. I'd make it a hunting lodge that holds like, 4 families (after full upgrades), so you can bring in a ton of meat and hide.
Yes they already have potato farms.

The Hindi not having alcoholic drinks for birth rates was why I felt ok with not giving the Inuits one since most Native Americans didn't drink alcohol until they were given it by their overseas 'visitors'
The Hindi use food for birth rates, the beef stew that grants a strength boost would likely be a food for the Inuits to do that with.
Food is used to speed the growth of children, while drinks help make more children. So, what if we could give the Hindi and Inuits lowered spawn rates but faster growth rates? So, they have difficulty making children, compared to other cultures, but assuming they have their unique foods, their children will grow faster than those of other cultures? It'd also be cool to do that the other way around, as well, where you have a culture that grows slowly but reproduces like rabbits.

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by felinoel » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:18 am

Zoythrus wrote:
felinoel wrote:The hunters could walk around and then come back at the end of the day with polar bear flesh spawned as if they had a successful hunt.
There already is a 'farm' which is an open field that cows spawn in. I guess there could be a polar bear spawner added to that too but I worry that the polar bears would murder the villagers.
Well, it sounds like a fun experiment. It would be cool to have hunters as a distinct villager type that leaves for the day then returns with hide. I'd make it a hunting lodge that holds like, 4 families (after full upgrades), so you can bring in a ton of meat and hide.
Well there technically already is hunter villagers, anyone who has tried to keep animals in a plot of land inside a village will attest to that.
Yes they already have potato farms.

The Hindi not having alcoholic drinks for birth rates was why I felt ok with not giving the Inuits one since most Native Americans didn't drink alcohol until they were given it by their overseas 'visitors'
The Hindi use food for birth rates, the beef stew that grants a strength boost would likely be a food for the Inuits to do that with.
Food is used to speed the growth of children, while drinks help make more children. So, what if we could give the Hindi and Inuits lowered spawn rates but faster growth rates? So, they have difficulty making children, compared to other cultures, but assuming they have their unique foods, their children will grow faster than those of other cultures? It'd also be cool to do that the other way around, as well, where you have a culture that grows slowly but reproduces like rabbits.
I don't think that people would notice it when there is a ton of children, people barely notice the children now as they are.

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Zoythrus » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:09 am

felinoel wrote:Well there technically already is hunter villagers, anyone who has tried to keep animals in a plot of land inside a village will attest to that.
I mean dedicated hunters that roam hundreds of blocks off the property, then return at night with spawned loot.

I don't think that people would notice it when there is a ton of children, people barely notice the children now as they are.
Kids are to fill the spots that open up in a village. Having a great reproduction rate allows villages to grow pretty fast.

But yeah, we can nix drinks for the Inuits and Hindi. Thankfully, the Hindi have the stepwell to combat that, as that supposedly improves crop growth rates by 20%.

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by felinoel » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:03 pm

Zoythrus wrote:
felinoel wrote:Well there technically already is hunter villagers, anyone who has tried to keep animals in a plot of land inside a village will attest to that.
I mean dedicated hunters that roam hundreds of blocks off the property, then return at night with spawned loot.
I didn't think we could do that, what with the chunks unloading and whatnot.
I don't think that people would notice it when there is a ton of children, people barely notice the children now as they are.
Kids are to fill the spots that open up in a village. Having a great reproduction rate allows villages to grow pretty fast.
Yes.

But yeah I don't think that people would notice it when there is a ton of children, people barely notice the children now as they are.

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Zoythrus » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:20 pm

felinoel wrote: didn't think we could do that, what with the chunks unloading and whatnot.
You know, I totally forgot about chunks unloading. Well, I wonder if it could be faked.....
It'd make for a pretty great thing, though, as I'd rather not have Polar Bear farms.
Yes.

But yeah I don't think that people would notice it when there is a ton of children, people barely notice the children now as they are.
You know, I'd like to have child birth actually mean something. I wonder if we can turn down spawn and growth rates so that food and drink have a substantial and noticeable effect on a village. So, Hindi and Inuit villages would grow much slower than other villages because of their lack of drinks, so they'd have to import them from elsewhere to compensate.

And no, I'm not saying that children shouldn't be born ONLY if the village has drinks, but that drinks should up the spawn chances substantially.

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by felinoel » Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:07 pm

Zoythrus wrote:
felinoel wrote: didn't think we could do that, what with the chunks unloading and whatnot.
You know, I totally forgot about chunks unloading. Well, I wonder if it could be faked.....
It'd make for a pretty great thing, though, as I'd rather not have Polar Bear farms.
We could have wandering villagers?
Yes.

But yeah I don't think that people would notice it when there is a ton of children, people barely notice the children now as they are.
You know, I'd like to have child birth actually mean something. I wonder if we can turn down spawn and growth rates so that food and drink have a substantial and noticeable effect on a village. So, Hindi and Inuit villages would grow much slower than other villages because of their lack of drinks, so they'd have to import them from elsewhere to compensate.

And no, I'm not saying that children shouldn't be born ONLY if the village has drinks, but that drinks should up the spawn chances substantially.
People will only think the mod is broken and not working right, they won't know that child birth means anything.

Over these many years I have seen countless posts whining that Millenaire is broken because a new house was built but no one moved into it yet.
Countless.

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Zoythrus » Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:31 pm

felinoel wrote:We could have wandering villagers?
That'd be interesting. I guess that's up to Galian, though.
People will only think the mod is broken and not working right, they won't know that child birth means anything.

Over these many years I have seen countless posts whining that Millenaire is broken because a new house was built but no one moved into it yet.
Countless.
That's what Changelogs are for. Since we're doing things like rebalancing, anything mechanics or values in 1.7.10 are up to revision for 1.8 and so on. If we wanted to mess with spawn/growth code to provide a better experience, then we can, and players will have to adapt. We just need to make sure that it's all in the manual. Is everyone going to read the manual? No, but at least we can say "We did tell you."

I'm in the boat that developing a village needs to be a slow, but rewarding, process. Now, not "slow" as in "tedious," but "slow" as in "not done overnight." Lowering spawn and growth a little could achieve that effect, but only if things like food and drinks can speed up the process in a noticeable way. I'll talk to Galian about it.

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by felinoel » Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:06 pm

Zoythrus wrote:
felinoel wrote:We could have wandering villagers?
That'd be interesting. I guess that's up to Galian, though.
People will only think the mod is broken and not working right, they won't know that child birth means anything.

Over these many years I have seen countless posts whining that Millenaire is broken because a new house was built but no one moved into it yet.
Countless.
That's what Changelogs are for. Since we're doing things like rebalancing, anything mechanics or values in 1.7.10 are up to revision for 1.8 and so on. If we wanted to mess with spawn/growth code to provide a better experience, then we can, and players will have to adapt. We just need to make sure that it's all in the manual. Is everyone going to read the manual? No, but at least we can say "We did tell you."

I'm in the boat that developing a village needs to be a slow, but rewarding, process. Now, not "slow" as in "tedious," but "slow" as in "not done overnight." Lowering spawn and growth a little could achieve that effect, but only if things like food and drinks can speed up the process in a noticeable way. I'll talk to Galian about it.
That was what the FAQ I made years ago was for, but no one read it and no one cared that it was thematic and made sense.

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Zoythrus » Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:30 am

felinoel wrote:That was what the FAQ I made years ago was for, but no one read it and no one cared that it was thematic and made sense.
I didn't read the FAQ, but I did read the ingame help manual. I feel, though, that's more an issue with how to find help than the game mechanics. The website needs a redesign, especially in a way that makes appropriate resources easier to find. Really, all of the supplementary material is going to need an overhaul, but once we do that, players should have no problem understanding mechanics and fixing problems. :)

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by felinoel » Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:30 am

Zoythrus wrote:
felinoel wrote:That was what the FAQ I made years ago was for, but no one read it and no one cared that it was thematic and made sense.
I didn't read the FAQ, but I did read the ingame help manual. I feel, though, that's more an issue with how to find help than the game mechanics. The website needs a redesign, especially in a way that makes appropriate resources easier to find. Really, all of the supplementary material is going to need an overhaul, but once we do that, players should have no problem understanding mechanics and fixing problems. :)
The FAQ has been outdated for like three years now. Tried to keep it updated but meh.

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Zoythrus » Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:41 am

We'll solve all that later.

Back to cultures. No drinks for Inuits or Hindi?

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by MoonCutter2B » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:29 am

A typical solution in games for ppl not reading FAQ's etc. is to add a quest or two ...
And we could also make the villagers talk about stuff like "I wish we had more food so the kids could grow faster"

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Zoythrus » Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:42 pm

MoonCutter2B wrote:A typical solution in games for ppl not reading FAQ's etc. is to add a quest or two ...
And we could also make the villagers talk about stuff like "I wish we had more food so the kids could grow faster"
Contextual dialogue is a great idea! I wonder how hard it'd be to implement.

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by felinoel » Sat Oct 15, 2016 12:01 am

Zoythrus wrote:We'll solve all that later.

Back to cultures. No drinks for Inuits or Hindi?
That seems most likely, they wouldn't be drinking alcohol naturally... though... they may drink strength potions...

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Zoythrus » Sat Oct 15, 2016 4:00 am

felinoel wrote:
Zoythrus wrote:We'll solve all that later.

Back to cultures. No drinks for Inuits or Hindi?
That seems most likely, they wouldn't be drinking alcohol naturally... though... they may drink strength potions...
We're talkin' alcoholic drinks (well, drinks that improve village spawn rates).

So, then, how should the Inuits and Hindi compensate for their lack of drinks?

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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Ticlon » Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:00 pm

Hey guys, I am still lurking here from time to time and really like the idea of culture balance :)

Originally, long before the combat update, it was planned to have the Byzantine Maze a charge attack instead of the ability to block. Technically, it launched an invisible short-range projectile to knock back enemies.
I think this is a good different way of balancing as well. Instead of necessarily having all cultures at the same power level in the end game, I think giving the weapons/tools special features differing in combat style (and gameplay) would make a much bigger incentive to really collect them all :)

Some ideas:
Normans: Weapons/Tools are just the best but 'normal' otherwise. I agree on them being the basic culture, representing the medieval world which the original Minecraft tools base on. Good to have, and very reliable.

Byzantines: More heavy armour, Maze has the special charge attack but you cannot hold a shield. When Horses are available: Heavier horse armour making them slower, but providing more protection. The normal armour could even make the user slower, so it is worth to put it on before fighting bosses.

Japanese: Lighter armour, faster attacks with the sword but also without having a shield (Think of it as a two handed sword). And of course the better bow.

Mayans: Since all of their tools/weapons have obsidian spikes, they could make the target bleeding. And a possible armour could also have 'obsidian spikes' and have the spike enchantment.

Hindi: I am really not sure what to give them, I guess some research is needed... Maybe something more peaceful, but none the less useful for expeditions or mining.

Inuit: Since they are not really a combat-based culture, lets take the nomadic theme and make them exploration based. I thought about having a special fishing rod that guarantees a good catch (maybe even special fish) for long expeditions. The fishes you can catch could have potion effects as well, chosen at random depending on the fish :) Also light armour with more specific protection enchantments, and a sword that increases the drop rate of meat from animals since Inuits hunted a lot.

These are my thoughts and rather something for the long-run.

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Zoythrus
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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Zoythrus » Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:15 pm

Hello, Ticlon, and thank you for your input!

Good ideas, but I'd like to clarify something:
Ticlon wrote:Instead of necessarily having all cultures at the same power level in the end game, I think giving the weapons/tools special features differing in combat style (and gameplay) would make a much bigger incentive to really collect them all :)
I want everyone to be effectively equal end game, but in different ways. Think of the balance between the Protoss, Terran, and Zerg. All very different, but no one is "better". I don't want any culture to immediately lose a raid simply because they're X culture - I want everyone to be relatively even matched, assuming they're given the proper manpower and materials to compete.

Also, I don't think we can have any two-handed weapons, despite that being a cool idea.

Lastly, since the Hindi don't have anything that makes them distinct, I plan on going with the "defensive culture" idea, to offset Japan as an "offensive culture."

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Xour
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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Xour » Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:35 am

Zoythrus wrote:Hello, Ticlon, and thank you for your input!

Good ideas, but I'd like to clarify something:
Ticlon wrote:Instead of necessarily having all cultures at the same power level in the end game, I think giving the weapons/tools special features differing in combat style (and gameplay) would make a much bigger incentive to really collect them all :)
I want everyone to be effectively equal end game, but in different ways. Think of the balance between the Protoss, Terran, and Zerg. All very different, but no one is "better". I don't want any culture to immediately lose a raid simply because they're X culture - I want everyone to be relatively even matched, assuming they're given the proper manpower and materials to compete.

Also, I don't think we can have any two-handed weapons, despite that being a cool idea.

Lastly, since the Hindi don't have anything that makes them distinct, I plan on going with the "defensive culture" idea, to offset Japan as an "offensive culture."
Perhaps they could be matched evenly in a different way? for example a culture like the normans with good tools could gather and build faster than the byzantines who get their extra resources from raiding other towns? I just don't want to see every culture have the same number of fighters with different gear.

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Zoythrus
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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Zoythrus » Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:48 am

Xour wrote:
Zoythrus wrote:Hello, Ticlon, and thank you for your input!

Good ideas, but I'd like to clarify something:
Ticlon wrote:Instead of necessarily having all cultures at the same power level in the end game, I think giving the weapons/tools special features differing in combat style (and gameplay) would make a much bigger incentive to really collect them all :)
I want everyone to be effectively equal end game, but in different ways. Think of the balance between the Protoss, Terran, and Zerg. All very different, but no one is "better". I don't want any culture to immediately lose a raid simply because they're X culture - I want everyone to be relatively even matched, assuming they're given the proper manpower and materials to compete.

Also, I don't think we can have any two-handed weapons, despite that being a cool idea.

Lastly, since the Hindi don't have anything that makes them distinct, I plan on going with the "defensive culture" idea, to offset Japan as an "offensive culture."
Perhaps they could be matched evenly in a different way? for example a culture like the normans with good tools could gather and build faster than the byzantines who get their extra resources from raiding other towns? I just don't want to see every culture have the same number of fighters with different gear.
That's something I want, too, but I'm not too sure just how far we can go, so I'm simply playing it safe. I'm all for vastly unique means of balance, but as said earlier, I don't want group to win a raid simply because the battle was Warmonger vs Pacifists, that's sort of the point of bandits.

Heck, if I could have everything I want in Millenaire, I'd let cultures completely take over other villages (and replace the people), but, that's probably not going to happen. This is why I feel everyone should be equal in a militaristic sense.

So, then, can you give me a list for each of the 6 factions of what you think everyone's "unique abilities" should be? We did talk a while ago about the idea of each village having a central shrine that provides unique cultural, passive bonuses (Hindi getting 20% faster crop growth, for example).

B35Patriot
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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by B35Patriot » Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:53 pm

That's something I want, too, but I'm not too sure just how far we can go, so I'm simply playing it safe. I'm all for vastly unique means of balance, but as said earlier, I don't want group to win a raid simply because the battle was Warmonger vs Pacifists, that's sort of the point of bandits.

Heck, if I could have everything I want in Millenaire, I'd let cultures completely take over other villages (and replace the people), but, that's probably not going to happen. This is why I feel everyone should be equal in a militaristic sense.

So, then, can you give me a list for each of the 6 factions of what you think everyone's "unique abilities" should be? We did talk a while ago about the idea of each village having a central shrine that provides unique cultural, passive bonuses (Hindi getting 20% faster crop growth, for example).
Speaking of raids, in the next update should we do anything we can to expand them?

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Zoythrus
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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Zoythrus » Sun Oct 16, 2016 4:23 pm

B35Patriot wrote:
Speaking of raids, in the next update should we do anything we can to expand them?
We will be examining them, but right now, Galian just wants to fix the most crucial bugs and just get the thing running. I assume, though, that raids will get a much needed buff with this update, seeing as he's been optimising and improving stuff, like pathfinding.

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Xour
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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by Xour » Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:21 am

Zoythrus wrote:That's something I want, too, but I'm not too sure just how far we can go, so I'm simply playing it safe. I'm all for vastly unique means of balance, but as said earlier, I don't want group to win a raid simply because the battle was Warmonger vs Pacifists, that's sort of the point of bandits.

Heck, if I could have everything I want in Millenaire, I'd let cultures completely take over other villages (and replace the people), but, that's probably not going to happen. This is why I feel everyone should be equal in a militaristic sense.

So, then, can you give me a list for each of the 6 factions of what you think everyone's "unique abilities" should be? We did talk a while ago about the idea of each village having a central shrine that provides unique cultural, passive bonuses (Hindi getting 20% faster crop growth, for example).
Normans: Economy through trade, If possible they should be able to trade with cultures when they have a disposition of 25+ with other cultures instead of needing to be good allies. They also get better deals than most cultures when they trade with people.

Hindi: Economy through gathering, more people gathering resources most of them can be defenders for there town as well but they are poorly equipped. extra buildings that are just for workers to live in.

Japanese: Military and Economy through shrines? They have average of both but they can build shrines to increase those stats. I'm thinking that they can build maybe three or four shrines and each time they do it gives a random bonus e.g. they build either A, B or C. A gives combat B gives economy and C gives growth?

Byzantine: Military through tanking, they have military units with heavy armour and weapons, need to be slow and bulky. Also they need to be able to raid more frequently. Maybe they can build a planning headquarter for there raids that speeds up planning phase of raids.

Mayan: Military and economy through idols? Special members of the tribe that carry idols, while they are alive they can boost stats. needs to be more precise than Japanese shrines as in the bonus can be specifically for build speed, or a type of crop or for speed, health or attack of soldiers.

Inuit: Economy through Resourcefulness, the Inuits were survivors of harsh climates, I like the ideas of fishing bonuses and wandering hunters. I'd also like them to lose less resources after they are raided, as if they had hidden stashes of resources and for them to be able to find good things while fishing and hunting. (rare items that they can bring back to there town).

Anyway this is just another lot of ideas for cultures, there have been a lot lately and eventually we'll need to decide on how we want to do things, maybe we should start compiling the ideas?

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felinoel
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Re: Let's Talk About Culture Balance

Post by felinoel » Mon Oct 17, 2016 5:59 pm

Zoythrus wrote:
felinoel wrote:
Zoythrus wrote:We'll solve all that later.

Back to cultures. No drinks for Inuits or Hindi?
That seems most likely, they wouldn't be drinking alcohol naturally... though... they may drink strength potions...
We're talkin' alcoholic drinks (well, drinks that improve village spawn rates).

So, then, how should the Inuits and Hindi compensate for their lack of drinks?
I'm sticking with strength potions. Either the vanilla one or a boiled snow item that grants a weak strength bonus.

I mentioned to you that they felt meat granted them strength, it could be created from excess stew water when the chef prepares stew items. Or it could just be the stew items themselves that grants strength AND increases birth rates.
Ticlon wrote:Byzantines: More heavy armour, Maze has the special charge attack but you cannot hold a shield. When Horses are available: Heavier horse armour making them slower, but providing more protection. The normal armour could even make the user slower, so it is worth to put it on before fighting bosses.
Would we be able to make horse armor that slows the horses...?
Maybe it can have a potion effect...
Japanese: Lighter armour, faster attacks with the sword but also without having a shield (Think of it as a two handed sword). And of course the better bow.
With the new update we can have faster weaponry.
Inuit: Since they are not really a combat-based culture, lets take the nomadic theme and make them exploration based. I thought about having a special fishing rod that guarantees a good catch (maybe even special fish) for long expeditions. The fishes you can catch could have potion effects as well, chosen at random depending on the fish :) Also light armour with more specific protection enchantments, and a sword that increases the drop rate of meat from animals since Inuits hunted a lot.
Maybe... since it is being recommended to give the Inuits a spear... maybe some spears can be given fishing enchants and when throwing a spear into water it has a chance to catch fish?
Xour wrote:
Zoythrus wrote:Lastly, since the Hindi don't have anything that makes them distinct, I plan on going with the "defensive culture" idea, to offset Japan as an "offensive culture."
Perhaps they could be matched evenly in a different way? for example a culture like the normans with good tools could gather and build faster than the byzantines who get their extra resources from raiding other towns?
I like this idea, perhaps they could even have their own specialized tools?
Zoythrus wrote:So, then, can you give me a list for each of the 6 factions of what you think everyone's "unique abilities" should be? We did talk a while ago about the idea of each village having a central shrine that provides unique cultural, passive bonuses (Hindi getting 20% faster crop growth, for example).
I sort of posted that above.
Zoythrus wrote:
B35Patriot wrote:
Speaking of raids, in the next update should we do anything we can to expand them?
We will be examining them, but right now, Galian just wants to fix the most crucial bugs and just get the thing running. I assume, though, that raids will get a much needed buff with this update, seeing as he's been optimising and improving stuff, like pathfinding.
I still say raids should just be handled without loading physical raiders, just have it calculate the chunk and a speed for them to cross it with, that way the bug of raiders getting stuck in unloaded chunks won't happen.
Have it maybe check if the player is within 100 blocks every two chunks it passes? That may be less intensive than the current means.
Xour wrote:Normans: Economy through trade, If possible they should be able to trade with cultures when they have a disposition of 25+ with other cultures instead of needing to be good allies. They also get better deals than most cultures when they trade with people.
I still say the trade houses need to go out to other cultures... maybe it can only go to certain additional cultures like the Hindi to balance things for them?

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